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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 46 of 80 (717970)
02-03-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
02-03-2014 8:53 AM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
jar writes:

And once again Phat, where is your support for Lucifer's desire for autonomy, or that Lucifer wanted to be worshiped or that Lucifer wanted to not listen to a higher authority?

But these are the stories! In googling Lucifer and perusing what Christians...as well as other beliefs state about him, he is either portrayed as hateful and jealous or as simply another spirit desiring autonomy.

Anselm comments:

quote:
IF you carefully consider the scheme of human salvation, you will perceive the reconciliation of the devil, of which you made inquiry, to be impossible. For, as man could not be reconciled but by the death of the God-man, by whose holiness the loss occasioned by man's sin should be made up; so fallen angels cannot be saved but by the death of a God-angel who by his holiness may repair the evil occasioned by the sins of his companions. And as man must not be restored by a man of a different race, though of the same nature, so no angel ought to be saved by any other angel, though all were of the same nature, for they are not like men, all of the same race. For all angels were not sprung from one, as all men were. And there is another objection to their restoration, viz , that, as they fell with none to plot their fall, so they must rise with none to aid them; but this is impossible. But otherwise they cannot be restored to their original dignity. For, had they not sinned, they would have been confirmed in virtue without any foreign aid, simply by the power given to them from the first. And, therefore, if any one thinks that the redemption of our Lord ought to be extended even to the fallen angels, he is convinced by reason, for by reason he has been deceived. And I do not say this as if to deny that the virtue of his death far exceeds all the sins of men and angels, but because infallible reason rejects the reconciliation of the fallen angels.

My question is...where did Anselm get his ideas about who Lucifer was?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 02-03-2014 8:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 02-03-2014 1:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29775
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 47 of 80 (717992)
02-03-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
02-03-2014 12:26 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
He made it up using his own human reasoning; he made it up to suit his own purposes.

But notice, he also provides no support for his position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 48 of 80 (718086)
02-04-2014 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
02-03-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Lucifers Defense Attorney
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that God leaves the idea of worship and obligation entirely at our choice and will?


Why wouldn't He? What good does worship do for Him?

Phat writes:

That even if we chose to become atheists and chose to look to no other higher source than ourselves that He would honor it?


As Groucho Marx said, "I dont care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." I wouldn't have any respect for a God who had no expectations of me beyond obedience.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 02-03-2014 12:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:40 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 49 of 80 (718097)
02-04-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
02-04-2014 10:44 AM


Gods Expectations
As Groucho Marx said, "I dont care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." I wouldn't have any respect for a God who had no expectations of me beyond obedience.

OK, so what else does He expect? IF I am gonna work hard, hard enough to give away more than I need...I have a few expectations also.

This relationship is a two way street.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 50 of 80 (718099)
02-04-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
02-04-2014 11:40 AM


Re: Gods Expectations
Phat writes:

IF I am gonna work hard, hard enough to give away more than I need...I have a few expectations also.


Such as?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 12:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 51 of 80 (718103)
02-04-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
02-04-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Gods Expectations
Now you have me thinking.

Im getting older, and my diabetes is slowly taking its toil.

I cant count on myself to work hard enough to take care of myself.

There are few people out there that would hand me spare change...and it takes a lot of spare change to provide a retirement.

I wonder if Anselm worried about his earthly security---nevermind his eternal security.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 12:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 52 of 80 (718106)
02-04-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
02-04-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Gods Expectations
Phat writes:

I cant count on myself to work hard enough to take care of myself.


That's why we evolved societies. Unfortunately you live in one of the most antisocial societies on earth. You can't even count on free healthcare.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 12:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 53 of 80 (792957)
10-17-2016 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
02-02-2014 1:12 PM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions?

How can I answer the questions honestly when it will mean I am going against God?
Sometimes taking our own path leads to us getting lost. Or hurt.

If I am truly going to be assigned satan as my client, I may well warn him about reality.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 02-02-2014 1:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13973
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 54 of 80 (792960)
10-17-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
10-17-2016 7:52 AM


Re: There is no exclusionary option
Phat writes:

How can I answer the questions honestly when it will mean I am going against God?


How is honesty going against God?

Phat writes:

If I am truly going to be assigned satan as my client, I may well warn him about reality.


Or you might get a reality check of your own.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 7:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10238
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 55 of 80 (792961)
10-17-2016 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
01-24-2014 10:50 AM


Re: God need never lie.
I thought about this.

If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?

  • We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.

  • We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however. Satan was defending his own right to exist. death was not something to be discussed.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by ringo, posted 01-24-2014 10:50 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 1:17 PM Phat has responded
     Message 57 by Tangle, posted 10-17-2016 1:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 60 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2016 4:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13973
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 56 of 80 (792962)
    10-17-2016 1:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
    10-17-2016 1:08 PM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Phat writes:

    If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?

    We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.


    Good would also die.

    Phat writes:

    We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however.


    But of couse he was telling the truth. God Himself said so.

    Phat writes:

    Satan was defending his own right to exist.


    Why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 1:08 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 4:18 AM ringo has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5244
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.1


    (1)
    Message 57 of 80 (792963)
    10-17-2016 1:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
    10-17-2016 1:08 PM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Phat writes:

    I thought about this.


    You really need to stop thinking like this - it's not helping. Why not think about something practical, something useful?

    If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?

    We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.
    We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however. Satan was defending his own right to exist. death was not something to be discussed.

    Can't you see that this is just gibberish? It carries no meaning at all.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 1:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10238
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 58 of 80 (792973)
    10-18-2016 4:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
    10-17-2016 1:17 PM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?

    Because there is only One God....

    You cant defend your right to be an equal.

    Among humans we all are equal.

    Among Gods there is only One.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by ringo, posted 10-17-2016 1:17 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 59 by Rrhain, posted 10-18-2016 4:50 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6217
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 59 of 80 (792974)
    10-18-2016 4:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
    10-18-2016 4:18 AM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Phat writes:

    quote:
    Among humans we all are equal.

    Among Gods there is only One.


    Well, except that the Bible directly states that there are others. It's one of the Commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    And before that, the Bible directly states that because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, we have become as gods, knowing good and evil.


    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 4:18 AM Phat has not yet responded

        
    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6217
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 60 of 80 (792975)
    10-18-2016 4:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
    10-17-2016 1:08 PM


    Re: God need never lie.
    Phat writes:

    quote:
    If humans metaphorically ingested good and evil both, what would be true?

    We would die...in that evil itself will die. We have evil in us, thus death.


    But we didn't die. Adam and Eve lived on for hundreds of years after. Thus, god's statement that on the day they ate of the Tree of Knowledge they would die isn't true. God lied.

    quote:
    We would be like God. satan was not telling a truth, however.

    But that's what the serpent said (Note: The serpent in the Garden of Eden was most decidedly NOT the devil. It was just a serpent. Remember, there is no such thing as the devil in Judaism. That would deny the primacy of god.) The serpent said that if Eve ate of the tree, she would not die but instead her eyes would be opened and she would become as god, knowing good and evil.

    And that's exactly what happened. The serpent told the truth. It was god who lied.


    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2016 1:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

        
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