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Author Topic:   Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1621
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 61 of 80 (792976)
10-18-2016 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hyroglyphx
08-24-2008 2:56 PM


Re: Anselm not required
Sorry, I'm just not impressed with this whole thing of "this one said", "that one said", etc.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-24-2008 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 8:40 AM Pressie has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 62 of 80 (792979)
10-18-2016 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Pressie
10-18-2016 7:11 AM


Re: Anselm not required
That's what Faith and Belief are all about. This is not a Science Forum and there are no measurable results and published papers.
Perhaps this is more your cup of tea: Closer To Truth

Is there some philosophical, theological or basic practical moral truths that religion has answers to or is the entire concept irrelevant in our modern times?

More to the point: Is Jesus Christ relevant in modern times, or is the message more important than the messenger? I maintain that you cannot separate the message from the messenger.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 7:11 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 8:52 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 64 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 9:06 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 75 by Rrhain, posted 10-19-2016 4:49 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 77 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 7:55 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29017
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 63 of 80 (792980)
10-18-2016 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-18-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Phat writes:

I maintain that you cannot separate the message from the messenger.

Why? What prevents separating the message and the messenger? I the postman and the content of my mail synonymous? Would the value of the content be different if instead of snail mail it came as email?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 8:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1621
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 64 of 80 (792981)
10-18-2016 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-18-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Phat writes:

That's what Faith and Belief are all about. This is not a Science Forum and there are no measurable results and published papers.

So, it's irrelevant. Just people doing lots of word salads irrelevant to modern society.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 8:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:18 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29017
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 65 of 80 (792982)
10-18-2016 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Pressie
10-18-2016 9:06 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Pressie writes:

Phat writes:

That's what Faith and Belief are all about. This is not a Science Forum and there are no measurable results and published papers.

So, it's irrelevant. Just people doing lots of word salads irrelevant to modern society.

I think it is not just relevant to modern society but among the biggest challenges we face.

Just as we all face the threats posed by bad science, we all also face the threats posed by bad religion.

What we need to understand and emphasize is that the issues are not science, not religion but rather the misapplication and misuse of science and religion.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Pressie, posted 10-18-2016 9:06 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:37 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 66 of 80 (792990)
10-18-2016 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
10-18-2016 9:18 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Just as we all face the threats posed by bad science, we all also face the threats posed by bad religion.

Should we teach our children that God is irrelevant and that they will be judged solely on what they do?

Shall we shoot the messenger and yet accept the message?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:18 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:52 AM Phat has responded
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 74 by Theodoric, posted 10-18-2016 3:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 76 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2016 7:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29017
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 67 of 80 (792993)
10-18-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-18-2016 9:37 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Phat writes:

Should we teach our children that God is irrelevant and that they will be judged solely on what they do?

We should teach our children that they will be judged based on what they do.

Phat writes:

Shall we shoot the messenger and yet accept the message?

Again, how do you do it? Where do you get the idea I have ever suggested shooting a messenger?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 10:11 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 68 of 80 (792997)
10-18-2016 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
10-18-2016 9:52 AM


The Living Word Through Doing
jar writes:

Where do you get the idea I have ever suggested shooting a messenger?

But being a "good" or productive Christian first requires being a member of one of the Chapters of Club Christian and then depends on your behavior. I cannot see how any Christ would be a requirement. Perhaps you could explain those issues?

So we can have clubs based on the behavior of a dead prophet and that the prophet Himself is irrelevant to club activities. Got it. Seems you could care less whether the messenger is dead or alive. Perhaps you view the message as alive. Which means that as you do for others, you are making the words living and active. There is hope for you yet.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 9:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29017
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 69 of 80 (792999)
10-18-2016 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
10-18-2016 10:11 AM


Re: The Living Word Through Doing
Phat writes:

So we can have clubs based on the behavior of a dead prophet and that the prophet Himself is irrelevant to club activities.

No, again, that is not what I said. Even though Jesus was never a Christian Jesus story is still relevant to the religion Christianity. But it is the story and beliefs that are relevant not the reality of whether or not Jesus ever existed.

Phat writes:

Seems you could care less whether the messenger is dead or alive.

Again, how do you do it?

What I have said is I cannot understand what "Jesus is alive today" even means and so far no one has ever been able to explain it.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you view the message as alive.

Sheesh.

How can a message be alive? That just makes no sense whatsoever.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 10:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 70 of 80 (793001)
10-18-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-18-2016 4:18 AM


Re: God need never lie.
Phat writes:

You cant defend your right to be an equal.


Who said anything about being equal? We're talking about the right to exist, not be equal.

So, why would Satan or anybody else have to defend their right to exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 4:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 71 of 80 (793002)
10-18-2016 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-18-2016 9:37 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Phat writes:

Shall we shoot the messenger and yet accept the message?


If we shoot the messenger, does it change the message?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 11:46 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29017
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 72 of 80 (793004)
10-18-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
10-18-2016 11:39 AM


Re: Anselm not required
For some reason that argument always takes me back to the Country Club and the conversation between Sandy MacFiddish and Carl Spakler.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 10-18-2016 11:57 AM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 73 of 80 (793005)
10-18-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
10-18-2016 11:46 AM


Re: Anselm not required
jar writes:

For some reason that argument always takes me back to the Country Club and the conversation between Sandy MacFiddish and Carl Spakler.


On an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies, Jed and Jethro go golfing with Leo Durocher and think the ball is a "golf".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 10-18-2016 11:46 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 74 of 80 (793015)
10-18-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-18-2016 9:37 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Should we teach our children that God is irrelevant and that they will be judged solely on what they do?

Yup. Kind of unfair to judge them on things they don't do.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 9:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6098
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 75 of 80 (793029)
10-19-2016 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-18-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Anselm not required
Phat writes:

quote:
I maintain that you cannot separate the message from the messenger.

Then there can be no expectation of any truth from a book. If the message necessarily needs to come from the messenger, it will be corrupted by its transfer via any other method. You can't spread the message. The book can't spread the message. They can only spread bastardized versions of it. The only way to spread the message is through direct action of the messenger.

So where is this Jesus fellow?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-18-2016 8:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
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