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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 1 of 349 (492860)
01-03-2009 10:46 AM


We have heard it rumored that the demons Jesus and His apostles cast out are fallen angels.
However, there is no passage that actually says that (to our knowledge). This came to us earlier as we were contemplating Jude 6, And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day
2nd Peter 2:4 is similar.
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9). If the Authors of Jude and Peter claim that these angels were put into hell, then they could not have been around tormenting people during Acts, and Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1.
If it may appear that demons are not fallen angels, then what are they, and where do they come from? Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil. The bible itself says no such thing, but many hold that it would go against the God's goodness. This is rumored to be the same reason people claim Satan had to be an angel at some point. Actually, it seems the above verses would suggest that Satan is not, in fact, a fallen angel, as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment.
Perhaps demons are evil souls of Nephlim who died.
[shrugs]
Anyone else have some ideas?
One Love
bible study please (& thank you)
Edited by Bailey, : grammar

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 01-05-2009 12:45 PM Bailey has not replied
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-05-2009 6:24 PM Bailey has replied
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 03-22-2021 12:19 PM Bailey has not replied
 Message 349 by robertleva, posted 04-25-2021 10:38 AM Bailey has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 9 of 349 (493140)
01-06-2009 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
01-05-2009 6:24 PM


Christ's Resurrection
Thank you for your time friend.
If you don't mind, we were hoping to address the issues within your post separately; beginning here.
youhave writes:
Weary writes:
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9)
Are you sure about the timing of this event?
No. Test it according to the Father's words; the Bereans received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. We are only sure that Jesus and His Father have revealed One technique for everliving survival and are currently accepting applications.
Are you suggesting the debbil and its posse were ejected from the Mansion and further strapped down before Christ's resurrection?
How does that reconcile; or have we misunderstood each other?
This scripture nor any of those around it even hint that this took place immediately after Jesus' resurrection.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
You got anything better than that?
We suppose that will remain to be seen.
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them.
Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
Do you see?
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-05-2009 6:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2009 8:02 PM Bailey has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 10 of 349 (493141)
01-06-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
01-05-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Re Demons
Thank you for your time.
The word translated demons in most translations has no such definition.
transliteration daimonion.
Definition
1) the divine power, deity, divinity
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil

— ‘ 4:1 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Strong's Numbers
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-05-2009 6:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2009 7:40 PM Bailey has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 11 of 349 (493146)
01-06-2009 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate
01-05-2009 8:41 PM


Did someone add chaff to the Father's wheat?
Thank you for your time DA.
DA writes:
ICANT writes:
The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
So here is a spin-off question.
If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself?
An interesting topic. Is anyone able to provide a chapter and verse establishing that the Father has created beings with the specific purpose of tempting us, or that He knew of their evil in advance, if such is the case?
lol - or is this more like jew/catholic/protestant dogma that appears unsubstantiated within scripture? Kinda like, the debbil is a 'fallen' angel, hell is for mortals, the Father of Life punishes the ones He Loves, all 'christians' Love Jesus and are received unto Him without blemish, etc..
No offence intended; yet, we are not religious and have found little, if anything, to evidence such opinions (nor have we located scripture encouraging the Ones the Father Loves to have faith in the debbil and its dwelling - been lookin' high and lo for it too).
TIA
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-05-2009 8:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 15 of 349 (493210)
01-07-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
01-06-2009 7:40 PM


Re: Re Demons
Thanks for the time ICANT
ICANT writes:
Weary writes:
Are you suggesting the 'evil spirits' inferior to the Father, or the 'messengers of the devil', spoken of in Timothy are something other than 'demons'?
Please expound, so we may further respond.
Notice my Bible translates devils instead of demons as many of our popular versions translate ..... They are evil spirits the (Angels) messengers of the devil.
So, you assume the entities spoken of in Timothy to be 'fallen' angels, correct?
Are they the same as demons, or separate species?
TIA
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2009 7:40 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 17 of 349 (493229)
01-07-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
01-06-2009 8:02 PM


Re: Christ's Resurrection
Thank you for the time and energy.
youcanbyfaith writes:
weary writes:
The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9).
So when did this take place?
When did salvation, and power, and the Kingdom of our Father and the authority of His Son, Jesus the Christ, come?
Or is it better for us to suggest they have not? If we do, John the Baptist and Paul may disagree with us - lol.
How can I conclude this took place prior to or at Jesus ressurrection?
Some may not be able, yet, perhaps by considering, or answering, the curiosities above.
This event has not taken place yet.
Interesting; we imagine otherwise. We contend Christ, and His Love, overcame 'death' shortly before mankind reset the counting of His years.
This is the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period when the antichrist stands in the Holy Place and declares himself to be God.
It is interesting sir. Do not feel swayed by our account, but His; the Father allows the ones He Loves to entertain many imaginations.
Within chapter twelve the debbil lost any & all authority within the Mansion, but still holds down the sphere until the Beginning.
At the same time, salvation, and power, and the Kingdom of our Father and the authority of His Son, Jesus the Christ, are declared throughout the Mansion.
We saw that the Son was crucified within the sphere.
By His Love for mankind, and through His suffering, He was granted Authority within the Mansion and the Sphere.
We see His Authority declared in the Mansion, through His resurrection, in chapter twelve, verse ten of the Unveiling.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
You have told us Christ will set his feet where He left from, many things will happen and He will set up His Kingdom here on earth, and our imagination has accepted this.
We further imagine this is when the One who Loves the most will establish Authority (that has already been declared) within the sphere.
If not how is it that:
For the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
Perhaps some assume the Son has not yet joined the Father in the Mansion; we imagine otherwise.
To us, you appear to be stating the debbil currently resides in the Father's Mansion, lol - perhaps having coffee with the Son in between accusations. It is hard for us to imagine, after all He endured, Jesus would entertain its company.
If Jesus, with Authority, joins the Father in the Mansion, can you imagine the debbil still exercising authority there?
If so, why did Jesus have to suffer in such a Way?
After this event the devil and his messengers are cast out and:
They are cast out of the Mansion directly before the salvation, and the power, and the Kingdom of our Father and the authority of His Son, the Christ, appeared.
We have seen the salvation, and the power, and the Kingdom of our Father and the authority of His Son established through Jesus' resurrection.
This event occured, roughly, 2009 years ago.
youcanbyfaith writes:
weary writes:
Do you see?
So no I do not see how all that took place at the ressurrection.
Ok.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2009 8:02 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2009 10:47 AM Bailey has replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 24 of 349 (493572)
01-09-2009 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
01-07-2009 10:47 AM


Re: Christ's Resurrection
Thank you for the exchange ...
havefaith writes:
weary writes:
Interesting; we imagine otherwise. We contend Christ, and His Love, overcame 'death' shortly before mankind reset the counting of His years.
I have no problem with Christ overcoming death.
Ok ...
But I do have some problems.
Mankind needed heat, it found fire; we need cold, we grab ice.
We needed truth, and it is available; if we give our eyes permission.
All our problems have been solved brother; the Solution is not always instantly realized.
John says I have a lawyer with the Father. Someone to plead my case.
Others report John spoke of a lawyer ...
We imagine John tells truth and reports we have a Comforter, and One Who Has Interceded, when we make our way Home to the Father's Mansion.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
And if anyone sins, we have an
Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous ...
If we needed a lawyer to further clear us of our crimes against the Spirit of Love, Jesus death would have been insufficient and His Resurrection deemed unnecessary.
But it was not.
Our humble advocate, the True and Faithful Witness has made permanent intercession; He now begins to comfort us.
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins ...
And not for ours only ...
But also for those of the
whole world.
If there is no one to make an accusaion against me, why do I need a lawyer?
Do you need a lawyer friend; what 'sin' has not been erased?
What accusation can the debbil drum up that would not be covered by the Blood?
On the Day, we can only be accused of not Loving enough to continue living.
As we seek Jesus' True and Easy Way, the Father does not pay our 'sin' any mind.
John says that Jesus is the whole worlds 'Comforter' and He was not likely kiddin'.
If you can see, this is the Awesome Verdict ...
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us!
According to you the devil is not allowed in heaven ...
Close, but no cigar ...
According to scripture, the debbil was cast out of the Mansion when the Father of Life's Son was murdered; it appears to be the straw that broke the camel's back. When we have faith we can imagine the debbil used to retain a priviledge providing temporary access to the Father in His Mansion. Many seem to take the idea the debbil had freedom, in the old testament, to go back and forth from the Mansion to the sphere as a dubious one. It appears to have traveled back and forth from the sphere to the Mansion creating mischief ...
Is that not more or less exactly what Job 1:6-7 says?
Now there was a day when the sons of the Father came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.
... and can not make accusations against me, so who does?
We imagine the Mansion is off limits to the debbil; but accusing? We shall not suggest whether or not the debbil may accuse; simply that it may no longer perform this task successfully, much less within the Father's Mansion.
So why can't Jesus just take a fishing trip and get ready for that thousand years of work He must do on earth?
It is funny you say that, as it is exactly what he is doing - lol
After His hard Day's work Jesus sat down at the right hand side of His Father and continues fishing for those who are interested in the Good News.
Instead of sitting at the Fathers side making intercession for me everytime I mess up.
lol - everytime? Ya tryin' to work Him to the bone!
The Blood Sacrafice @ Golgotha covers all 'sin' good friend; Jesus don't waste no time
His atonement is so completely encompassing that mutilating calf & stabbing sheep & rubbing beads is a futile waste of time - lol.
It appears time is better spent making bread for the homeless or pouring drinks for the thirsty.
KJV with Strong's
But this man after he had offered One Sacrifice for sins for ever sat down on the right hand of God
My sins are already covered by the blood of Jesus and my name is written in the book of life.
Sweet!!
If you get to the Mansion before us, tell the Faithful and True Witness 'weary' said hi, and we love Him.
Jesus willing, find Bob Marley too and tell him we will meet up in a lil' bit ...
So who accuses me and the bretheren before God day and night?
If anyone, a defeated loser with receding power and authority.
Does not matter anymore; Thank Jesus for doin' ya a solid ...
Perhaps, the debbil will say to the Father ...
ICANT did this and ICANT said that; the human does not love You!
And the Father will hear this ...
[cricket, cricket]
God Bless
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : grammar

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 01-07-2009 10:47 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 01-10-2009 2:39 PM Bailey has not replied

  
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