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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 241 of 319 (675223)
10-08-2012 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
10-08-2012 7:58 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Are you proposing some sort of "sixth sense" type means of detection.....?

I believe that it is possible, as I have "imagined/believed" such a scenario. No proof, however.......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 10-08-2012 7:58 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 7:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 242 of 319 (675232)
10-09-2012 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
10-08-2012 11:49 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Blimey!!

I'm still trying to garner from you what effect you believe demons can have on one's behaviour. As far as I understand it whenever I do something that rationally I know isn't a good idea I am being potentially influenced by demons.

Now you seem to be suggesting that this influence is exerted by mans of some "sixth sense" type phenomenon......

Have you ever heard of the mind-body problem? If I were to ask you how some non-materially detectable form of influence could interract with our physical brains what would you say.....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 11:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:45 AM Straggler has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 243 of 319 (675233)
10-09-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Straggler
10-09-2012 7:43 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:

If I were to ask you how some non-materially detectable form of influence could interract with our physical brains what would you say.....?

You got me there. There is no objectiveevidence for any presumed supernatural phenomena, be it God, GOD, OGG, or demons. I maintain, however, that subjective evidence remains valid, at least for my own conclusions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 7:43 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 9:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 244 of 319 (675237)
10-09-2012 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Phat
10-09-2012 7:45 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
What do you mean by 'subjective evidence'....?

Which subjective experiences qualify as evidence and which don't?

If you have a dream about a demon does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of demons? If you have a dream about Aphrodite (for example) does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of Aphrodite?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 10-09-2012 7:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-22-2012 1:53 PM Straggler has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 245 of 319 (676381)
10-22-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Straggler
10-09-2012 9:38 AM


Subjective Evidence

Which subjective experiences qualify as evidence and which don't?

If you have a dream about a demon does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of demons? If you have a dream about Aphrodite (for example) does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of Aphrodite?

How would I know if I had a dream about a demon? The only subjective evidence that I would have is the way that my body/soul responded to the dream. If, for example, I broke out in a cold sweat, or was unable to move Paralyzed Wakefulness
Finally, should I approach the problem logically, reasonably, and rationally, or is that itself mean that I am in denial? Is spiritual experience untestable in the natural world?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 9:38 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Rahvin, posted 10-22-2012 2:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 247 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2012 7:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 246 of 319 (676385)
10-22-2012 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phat
10-22-2012 1:53 PM


Re: Subjective Evidence
How would I know if I had a dream about a demon? The only subjective evidence that I would have is the way that my body/soul responded to the dream. If, for example, I broke out in a cold sweat, or was unable to move Paralyzed Wakefulness

Really?

Nightmares and common sleep paralysis are "evidence" of something like demons, now?

So far "subjective evidence" just sounds like "ignorant gullibility."


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


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 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-22-2012 1:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 247 of 319 (676577)
10-23-2012 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phat
10-22-2012 1:53 PM


Re: Subjective Evidence
When we sleep there is a state of muscle atonia which stops us physically acting out our dreams. This is, for obvious reasons, a useful thing.

Sleep paralysis combined with some form of sexual arousal is what lies behind the Incubus demon myth.

Since having children (and thus 6 years and counting of disrupted sleep) I have experienced this in a minor sense myself a few times.

The feeling that one is (sort of) conscious whilst also unable to move is a common and a known aspect of REM sleep gone a bit wrong. Throw in the (again entirely involuntary) male erection cycle (or the female clitoral equivalent) and you have some pretty tasty myths around demonic sexual encounters.

Subjective evidence says demons...

What we know about the nature of sleep says not..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-22-2012 1:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 248 of 319 (732172)
07-03-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
08-27-2012 4:58 PM


Pope Francis and the demons
Straggler writes:

Either those who believe demons do exist are wrong or those who believe they don't exist are wrong. We may never know which. But we do know for a fact that some beliefs are just factually wrong.

How can it be otherwise?

Indeed. As I may have said before, I dont go out of my way to believe in the occult. I DO defend my belief in God,though I allow myself to question it.(as opposed to doubting it)

This was interesting:

VATICAN GIVES THUMBS UP FOR EXORCIST ASSOCIATION

The article states--in part:

quote:
More than his predecessors, Pope Francis speaks frequently about the devil, and last year was seen placing his hands on the head of a man purportedly possessed by four demons in what exorcists said was a prayer of liberation from Satan.

Apparently, one such recipient of blessing from the good Pontif himself still has issues.
Man in Pope Francis Exorcism Story Says He's Still Possessed by Demons


When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 08-27-2012 4:58 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 07-03-2014 4:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 250 by Straggler, posted 07-04-2014 1:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 07-04-2014 1:27 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 249 of 319 (732177)
07-03-2014 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
07-03-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
LOL

The guy shows all the classic signs of bad burritos.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 3:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10196
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 250 of 319 (732222)
07-04-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
07-03-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
I'm not sure what we are supposed to take from this?

That demons are real because the Pope says so...?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 3:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 251 of 319 (732224)
07-04-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
07-03-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
"Pope Francis and the demons" sounds like a Disney movie.

"I just rattled off that post not caring whether any of it was true or not if you want to know." -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 07-03-2014 3:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 07-17-2014 8:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 260 by Phat, posted 01-03-2015 11:35 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 252 of 319 (733512)
07-17-2014 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
07-04-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
"Pope Francis and the demons" sounds like a Disney movie.

The main character in the movie is this guy from Canada who simply wants God to leave him alone and who resents the idea that God gets to treat humanity however He decrees. He finds some of the demons on the street...homeless and unkempt....and gives them some of his spare change. A friendship is forged. The autocratic Catholic Bishop hears of this and frantically calls the Vatican. "To The Popemobile", they shout! The climactic finale has Pope Francis on a snowmobile, heading the demons off at the pass...whereby our Canadian friend steps in front of the Pontif and begs him to lay off the poor demons....who are, after all, simply displaced people in need of a home.

Walt would of course turn over in his grave.


When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 07-04-2014 1:27 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 253 of 319 (739163)
10-21-2014 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-22-2012 12:04 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
zombie writes:

If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?

Because of the otherworldly voices. The human freely decided to allow the inspiration of the demon in their lives and the otherworldly voices confirm the existence of the demon...not simply as a man making unduplicatable noises.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-22-2012 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-21-2014 12:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 1:25 PM Phat has responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 247
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 254 of 319 (739176)
10-21-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
10-21-2014 9:44 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
What makes you think that such noises can't be duplicated? The fact that believers don't duplicate them - and thus undermine their own beliefs and claims - when asked?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 10-21-2014 9:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 255 of 319 (739187)
10-21-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
10-21-2014 9:44 AM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
Phat writes:

...not simply as a man making unduplicatable noises.


Ever see a movie? Chances are you got your idea of what "otherworldly voices" are from a movie like The Exocist or Poltergeist.

If your ear can hear it - i.e if it is a sound wave - then it can be duplicated. What maybe can not be duplicated is a glitch in your brain that causes you to think you hear something that isn't really there, that isn't really a sound at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 10-21-2014 9:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 10-21-2014 3:12 PM ringo has responded

  
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