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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 271 of 319 (746373)
01-06-2015 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
01-06-2015 2:27 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

The battle is between our carnal nature(what we like to do in that it feels good and is often selfish) and our spiritual nature(altruistic, regarding others better than ourselves)

You're all over the place again - confused by simple-minded, copycat preachings. What we like to do is usually good for us and not necessarily selfish at all. From what I'm reading about you, you need to get out and do more of what you enjoy doing that is good for you, not less. Helping others is also good for us and isn't at all spiritual - it's a basic human instinct. Both things are totally natural, understandable and thoroughly earthbound.
You're not doing yourself any good buying into this drivel.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 01-06-2015 2:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 272 of 319 (746380)
01-06-2015 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
01-06-2015 2:37 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

When you see an attractive girl,for example...and you are a teenager full of hormones...the first natural inclination is to try and have her.
This is the Yetzer Hara.

The second inclination is to bless her and keep your hands off of her since she is so beautiful and rare. This is the Yetzer Tov.

Ah, it appears that whoever taught you about Yetzer Hara and Yetzer Hatov simply misrepresented them or you simply misunderstood what was taught.

They are totally unrelated to any demons or demonic forces or outside forces. Nor are your examples related. It is only the outcome that determines whether something is Yetzer Hara and Yetzer Hatov. In the first example if the boy desires the girl and the girls desires the boy and they become lovers then it is Yetzer Hatov,

They gave each other a pledge.
(Unheard of, absurd.)
You gave each other a pledge?
(Unthinkable.)
Where do you think you are?
In Moscow? In Paris? Where do think they are? America?
And what do you think you're doing?
You stitcher, you nothing! Who do think you are? King Solomon?
This isn't the way it's done, not here, not now.
Some things I will not, I cannot, allow.
Tradition!
Marriages must be arranged by the papa.
This should never changed!
One little time you pull out a prop, and where does it stop?
Where does it stop?
Where does it stop?

Now if the boy desires the girl but the girl thinks the boy is a bupkes and yet he forces himself on her then it is Yetzer Hara unless of course the girl is a shlimizel in which case it is just normal.

It is not God or Demons that are involved in Yetzer Hara or Yetzer Hatov, no warfare, no fight and actually no firm list of what is Yetzer Hara or Yetzer Hatov. Any differences between them often are subtle and shifting and totally internal to the individuals and the situation and dependent on outcomes.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 01-06-2015 2:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 273 of 319 (746381)
01-06-2015 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
01-06-2015 2:37 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Is that truly how you think? Are your base instincts the most dominant in your life? Pleasure is not bad.

Everything in moderation, even moderation.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 01-06-2015 2:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 274 of 319 (746392)
01-06-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
01-06-2015 2:27 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

The battle is between our carnal nature(what we like to do in that it feels good and is often selfish) and our spiritual nature(altruistic, regarding others better than ourselves)


I don't think altruism is our "spiritual nature". Anything we call a "spiritual nature" is just an offshoot of our "carnal nature". Altruism evolved because it's good for the group and what's good for the group is good for the individual. There can be conflict between what's good for me now and what's good for the group in the long run but it's silly to call that "spiritual warfare" or to bring "demons" into it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 01-06-2015 2:27 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 275 of 319 (814043)
07-03-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
01-06-2015 11:09 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
ringo in another thread writes:

I'm not buying it because I don't believe a real God would hide. I refuse to accept your excuse that your God is hiding. If He came out of hiding I would not refuse Him.

If your logic is correct, it would necessarily follow that everyone would have evidence and the entire world would see the obvious truth. Yet scripture tells us that a minority will believe and a majority will scoff.
If there is no evidence, you're allowed to believe but one belief is as good as another.
And you clarify:

riingo writes:

If there was something real outside our rational logic, how would we know?
Even those who believe in demons are looking at real manifestations, usually "odd behavior". The only difference between a scientific approach and theirs is that they let their beliefs color their conclusions.

I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.

Getting back to demons, however...I have seen enough subjective experiences to tentatively conclude they are real.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 01-06-2015 11:09 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM Phat has responded
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 12:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 276 of 319 (814045)
07-03-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:41 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.

And where is the problem with that?

Phat writes:

Getting back to demons, however...I have seen enough subjective experiences to tentatively conclude they are real.

Yawn.

Why are demons only able to effect folk that believe in demons?

Why has there never been a case of a demon ever effecting an atheist or anyone who does not believe in demons?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:53 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:01 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-04-2017 12:58 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 277 of 319 (814093)
07-04-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
07-03-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
jar writes:

Why are demons only able to effect folk that believe in demons?

Why has there never been a case of a demon ever effecting an atheist or anyone who does not believe in demons?

As you may have mentioned before, anything that we ascribe supernatural elements to is not provable. Demons never affect unbelievers because demons are never ascribed as the cause. The cause is usually described as multiple personality disorder and/or schizophrenia. I'm not sure if you can state that there as never been a case...only that no case has been objectively proven. Which of course is true.

I am not claiming demons are a fact---only because I cannot show it objectively. You would probably assert that I prefer it to be true so that I have an excuse
other than human responsibility.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 11:16 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 278 of 319 (814094)
07-04-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
07-03-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.


jar writes:

And where is the problem with that?

Based on your belief---nothing. You always encourage folks to throw God away or in this case, a supernatural manifestation.

Perhaps you are right. The world would be a better place if all religious folks simply threw God away and approached life logically, reasonably and rationally.

After all, IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of our beliefs, feelings, and conclusions.

As for Demons, you may encourage us to fuggedaboudit.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 279 of 319 (814095)
07-04-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
07-04-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

Demons never affect unbelievers because demons are never ascribed as the cause. The cause is usually described as multiple personality disorder and/or schizophrenia.

Surely you're not mediaeval enough to diagnose schizophrenia as demon posession? That's just silly. And bloody dangerous.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 11:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9756
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 280 of 319 (814097)
07-04-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Tangle
07-04-2017 11:16 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Tangle writes:

Surely you're not medieval enough to diagnose schizophrenia as demon possession? That's just silly. And bloody dangerous.

I agree. Doctors have degrees for a reason.

quote:
At least six factors differentiate schizophrenia from demonic possession as described in the Bible.

These factors can be helpful when trying to determine if an individual is possessed or has an NBD. These have helped me better understand my brothers illness.

1. Attraction to vs. Aversion to Religion. Demons want nothing to do with Christ. Conversely, people with NBD are often devoutly religious.

2. Irrational Speech vs. Rational Speech. In New Testament accounts involving demons, the demons spoke in a rational manner. Untreated people with schizophrenia will often speak in nonsense and jump rapidly between unrelated topics.

3. Ordinary Learning vs. Supernatural Knowledge Demons in the New Testament would speak through people to convey knowledge that otherwise could not have been known to the possessed individuals. Those with NBD have no such ability to know facts which they have not acquired by normal learning.

4. Normal vs. Occultic Phenomena. There is an aspect to demon activity that is just plain spooky (ex.: poltergeists, levitations, trances, telepathy). These have an impact on others in the room not just the possessed. With schizophrenia, the effect of the disorder is only on the disordered, not others.

5. The claim to be possessed Authors who have clinical experience both with demon possession and mental illness, believe those who claim to be possessed are very likely not possessed. Demons wish to be secretive and do not voluntarily claim to be present.

6. Effects of Therapy. If prayer solves the problem, then it was probably not schizophrenia. If medicine helps alleviate the problem, it was not demon possession.


Chew on that nuttiness for awhile!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 11:16 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 281 of 319 (814101)
07-04-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
07-03-2017 4:41 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Phat writes:

If your logic is correct, it would necessarily follow that everyone would have evidence and the entire world would see the obvious truth.


Yes, that's what evidence means.

Phat writes:

Yet scripture tells us that a minority will believe and a majority will scoff.


Chapter and verse?

Phat writes:

I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.


What do you mean by "yet"? You sound as if atheism was a bad thing.

Phat writes:

Getting back to demons, however...I have seen enough subjective experiences to tentatively conclude they are real.


How can you draw good conclusions from subjective data?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 07-03-2017 4:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 282 of 319 (814103)
07-04-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
07-03-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Demons do affect atheists. Then they stop being atheists. Happens a lot. But as Phat said, atheists do often succeed in rationalizing them away.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 1:26 PM Faith has not yet responded
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Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 283 of 319 (814106)
07-04-2017 1:23 PM


Demons do not exist
As more and more people grow away from Christianity, why is the occurrence of demon possession also declining? Shouldn't it be going up?
Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Stile has responded
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Stile has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5062
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 284 of 319 (814107)
07-04-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
07-04-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Faith writes:

Demons do affect atheists. Then they stop being atheists. Happens a lot. But as Phat said, atheists do often succeed in rationalizing them away.

Evidence please.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-04-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 285 of 319 (814109)
07-04-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
07-04-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Faith writes:

Demons do affect atheists. Then they stop being atheists. Happens a lot.


We know. Every fundamentalist used to be an atheist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-04-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:17 PM ringo has responded

  
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