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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Faith
Member
Posts: 26449
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 526 of 571 (787286)
07-08-2016 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Phat
07-07-2016 6:41 PM


Re: Literary Character or Literal Character?
It is my belief that you can only understand the character in the book through knowing the character outside of the book first. It is not the other way around.

It CAN happen in this order, but it's also true that people have experiences of a false God they mistake for the true God and only the Biblical revelation can show the difference. Satan spends all his time counterfeiting God, even giving various supernatural shows and "miracles" and so on, and people have fallen for the counterfeits ever since Eden. God gave us the Bible to keep us from falling for all that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Phat, posted 07-07-2016 6:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9892
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 527 of 571 (790852)
09-06-2016 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-16-2015 1:55 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:

Does having foreknowledge in and of itself imply evil IF some of the created beings end up evil?


jar writes:

AbsoDamnlutely.

( I followed our old debate for a few posts and came up with another question.)
jar writes:

If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.

Fair enough. I have a question about a portion of scripture.
John 8:31-47 writes:


31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."
39 "Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

The reason I bring this scripture up is because we were talking about a God who fore-knowingly creates....
  • Why did Jesus tell them that their father was Satan?
  • Would a God who foreknew that ones father was going to be Satan be guilty based on foreknowledge alone? Would not,in fact the "God that you claim should be violently opposed" in fact be Satan rather than Creator God?

    Whose fault was it that Satan was their father?

    What difference would it make if God had foreknown that Satan would be their father from the beginning?

    jar writes:

    Did God create you?

    Did God create Satan or did God merely create Lucifer? Did Abraham father the Jews in my scripture example or was Jesus correct in attributing their father as Satan?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 1:55 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 528 by jar, posted 09-06-2016 7:32 PM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 528 of 571 (790855)
    09-06-2016 7:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
    09-06-2016 6:45 PM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    Phat writes:

    The reason I bring this scripture up is because we were talking about a God who fore-knowingly creates....
    Why did Jesus tell them that their father was Satan?
    Would a God who foreknew that ones father was going to be Satan be guilty based on foreknowledge alone? Would not,in fact the "God that you claim should be violently opposed" in fact be Satan rather than Creator God?

    Whose fault was it that Satan was their father?

    What difference would it make if God had foreknown that Satan would be their father from the beginning?

    If the God character has foreknowledge then it is all God's fault and only God is responsible.

    Phat writes:

    Did God create Satan or did God merely create Lucifer? Did Abraham father the Jews in my scripture example or was Jesus correct in attributing their father as Satan?

    Neither position is true. If the God character has foreknowledge then the God character is fully and absolutely responsible for everything that happens. Satan is as Satan is depicted in most of the Bible, simply doing God's will.

    Remember, the author of John was marketing a revisionist picture and version of Christianity, of Jesus and of Judaism.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 527 by Phat, posted 09-06-2016 6:45 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 529 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:02 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 529 of 571 (790883)
    09-07-2016 11:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 528 by jar
    09-06-2016 7:32 PM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    do you believe in or imagine a "God character".....that somehow does not know what our futures will be? If so, I'm trying to imagine how such a character would be.

  • Does this character exist in past, present and future as one continuum?
  • Does this character react to human decision?
  • Is this the character which you have described before as a God that is learning on the job and whom we often or even occasionally correct?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 528 by jar, posted 09-06-2016 7:32 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 530 of 571 (790884)
    09-07-2016 11:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
    09-07-2016 11:02 AM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    Phat writes:

    do you believe in or imagine a "God character".....that somehow does not know what our futures will be? If so, I'm trying to imagine how such a character would be.

    What I believe is irrelevant to the logic. If there is a God that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that God has foreknowledge and that God creates humans that will get damned to hell then that God is evil.

    Phat writes:

    Does this character exist in past, present and future as one continuum?

    I have no idea and again, that is irrelevant to the logic of the argument.

    Phat writes:

    Does this character react to human decision?

    I have no idea of any possible way to test that question.

    Phat writes:

    Is this the character which you have described before as a God that is learning on the job and whom we often or even occasionally correct?

    Again, unknown. That God is one of the Gods of Scripture.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 529 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:02 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 531 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:26 AM jar has responded
     Message 532 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 531 of 571 (790886)
    09-07-2016 11:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 530 by jar
    09-07-2016 11:15 AM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    You are framing the argument from a human centric perspective...which I suppose is all we have to work with. I'm trying to pin you down on your belief, and you are attempting to keep that personal and instead hypothetically describe a God character---assign a judgement on such a character without then telling us what such a character should behave as.
    So I will ask a question. How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 533 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 532 of 571 (790887)
    09-07-2016 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 530 by jar
    09-07-2016 11:15 AM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    jar writes:

    If there is a God that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that God has foreknowledge and that God creates humans that will get damned to hell then that God is evil.

    Another way to frame this question:
    If there is a God that is the creator of all seen and unseen,Who directly or indirectly is responsible for the creation of humans, are you then saying that our charge is irrelevant to whether this God lioves us, hates us, or is indifferent to us? Are you saying that it is about what we do period? In essence are you preaching that we all should simply throw God away and act according to our conscience?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 530 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:15 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 533 of 571 (790888)
    09-07-2016 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 531 by Phat
    09-07-2016 11:26 AM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    Phat writes:

    How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?

    Not like the Gods of Scripture.

    AbE:

    Phat writes:

    Another way to frame this question:
    If there is a God that is the creator of all seen and unseen,Who directly or indirectly is responsible for the creation of humans, are you then saying that our charge is irrelevant to whether this God lioves us, hates us, or is indifferent to us? Are you saying that it is about what we do period? In essence are you preaching that we all should simply throw God away and act according to our conscience?

    I have no idea how your conscience would direct your behavior.

    Whether GOD, if GOD exists loves or hates or is indifferent to us would certainly have an effect.

    But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers. We are commanded to feed the hungry, clothe the naked (except at nudist beaches), shelter the homeless, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, teach the ignorant. Even when our conscience tells us we don't have to do that.

    Edited by jar, : add reply to Phat's second epistle


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 531 by Phat, posted 09-07-2016 11:26 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 534 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 3:54 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 534 of 571 (793028)
    10-19-2016 3:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 533 by jar
    09-07-2016 11:31 AM


    Behavior Of A Creator
    Phat writes:

    How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?


    jar writes:

    Not like the Gods of Scripture.

    Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth)

    Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant. In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp.

    If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?

    jar writes:

    But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers.

    So GOD as taskmaster. Supreme Commander Of all things seen and unseen, disciplining the ants that He so loves.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 533 by jar, posted 09-07-2016 11:31 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 535 of 571 (793036)
    10-19-2016 9:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 534 by Phat
    10-19-2016 3:54 AM


    Re: Behavior Of A Creator
    Phat writes:

    Phat writes:

    How should a God character behave in order for us to not oppose and revile said character?


    jar writes:

    Not like the Gods of Scripture.

    Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth)

    Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant. In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp.

    If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?

    Once again your response seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the passages you quoted.

    Phat writes:

    Do you believe that Jesus is God?(Now...not while on earth)
    Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity?

    Kinda sorta. The concept of the Trinity is part of the "mystery" of Trinitarian Christianity. It makes no sense, cannot really be explained or understood and almost all of the analogies used as teaching tools are so flawed that they just drive folk away scratching their heads.

    The only Trinitarian explanation I have ever come across that makes any sense whatsoever is the who vs what dichotomy; WHO they are and WHAT they are but it also includes the necessary understanding that we hare no longer talking about monotheism.

    Phat writes:

    GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, surely could make himself known to we ants by becoming an ant.

    How? If God became a man then what we would know would be a man.

    What might be learned is that God might begin to learn what it means to be man.

    Phat writes:

    In addition, an omnipresent Spirit shouldn't be that difficult of a concept to grasp.

    Again, what does that even mean? How would one identify an omnipresent Spirit and what would such a critter do?

    Phat writes:

    If GOD behaved in a friendly caring manner to humanity, is that such a difficult concept to imagine?

    But as has been pointed out the Gods found in scripture often do not behave in a friendly caring manner to humanity.

    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    But that is of course irrelevant to what we are charged to do. I believe we are charged to behave NOT according to our conscience but rather as commanded by Jesus and other spiritual teachers.

    So GOD as taskmaster. Supreme Commander Of all things seen and unseen, disciplining the ants that He so loves.

    Again, how is your response related in anyway to what you quoted?

    Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone.

    What I mentioned was that we must do.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 534 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 3:54 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 536 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 10:51 AM jar has responded
     Message 538 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 8:57 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 536 of 571 (793041)
    10-19-2016 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 535 by jar
    10-19-2016 9:10 AM


    Re: Behavior Of A Creator
    jar writes:

    How? If God became a man then what we would know would be a man.

    What might be learned is that God might begin to learn what it means to be man.

    Too funny. God needs to learn nothing. Jesus was in the beginning with the father. Therefore there would be no later time frame in which GOD would learn anything. Indeed it would be a learning experience for us to imagine a GOD becoming human. For GOD, however, Who exists in every past, present and future moment, the lesson was already internalized. He did it because He loved us.

    Perhaps for you, His life was more of a teaching example than His death.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 537 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 2:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 537 of 571 (793057)
    10-19-2016 2:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 536 by Phat
    10-19-2016 10:51 AM


    Re: Behavior Of A Creator
    Phat writes:

    Too funny. God needs to learn nothing. Jesus was in the beginning with the father. Therefore there would be no later time frame in which GOD would learn anything. Indeed it would be a learning experience for us to imagine a GOD becoming human. For GOD, however, Who exists in every past, present and future moment, the lesson was already internalized. He did it because He loved us.

    So you keep saying but of course that is not what scripture says and so far it seems that also has no real meaning.

    Phat writes:

    Perhaps for you, His life was more of a teaching example than His death.

    There you go again trying to say what I think and as usual, get everything wrong.

    How is Jesus death a teaching moment? What is there to learn from that moment?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 536 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 10:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 538 of 571 (793155)
    10-22-2016 8:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 535 by jar
    10-19-2016 9:10 AM


    Re: Behavior Of A Creator
    jar writes:

    Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone.

    What I mentioned was that we must do.

    Yes. You mention that we are charged.

    Who or what charges us? Is the charge self internalized or is it from a higher source?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 535 by jar, posted 10-19-2016 9:10 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 539 by jar, posted 10-22-2016 9:29 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29442
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 539 of 571 (793159)
    10-22-2016 9:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 538 by Phat
    10-22-2016 8:57 AM


    Re: Behavior Of A Creator
    Phat writes:

    jar writes:

    Nowhere did I mention any Supreme Commander or anything about disciplining anyone.

    What I mentioned was that we must do.

    Yes. You mention that we are charged.

    Who or what charges us? Is the charge self internalized or is it from a higher source?

    The charge is of course self generated. It can be attributed to most any source and has been so attributed to various Gods, the Buddha, several different philosophical systems and to basic humanity.

    The source is irrelevant.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 538 by Phat, posted 10-22-2016 8:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9892
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 540 of 571 (795142)
    12-06-2016 6:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 87 by jar
    07-16-2015 2:05 PM


    Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
    jar writes:

    Then if that God creates something that will be damned then that God is evil by definition.
    It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God.

    I totally disagree. Humans have a choice irregardless if God knows the choice.

    The statement should read if that God creates someone that wills themselves to be damned...."

    We were given a free will. God is responsible only for that fact.

    Whether such a deity is as you say worthy of our worship is also an action of free will.

    You seem stuck on this idea that God is a sociological concept that humans have a responsibility to define.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:05 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 541 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:05 PM Phat has responded
     Message 542 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 7:09 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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