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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(1)
Message 541 of 571 (795143)
12-06-2016 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Phat
12-06-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
If this god creates KNOWING the choice then that is what is evil. Creating a creature that you KNOW will be damned is what is wrong.

If this god does not know the outcome then people have to quit using the term omniscient concerning this god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 6:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:35 PM Asgara has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 542 of 571 (795144)
12-06-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Phat
12-06-2016 6:57 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
You may well disagree but the reasons you outlined have nothing to do with the position I have presented.

What the person does is totally irrelevant to the fact that a God who with foreknowledge creates someone who will be damned is evil and beyond being simply venial.

Such a God must be condemned by any thinking individual.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 6:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 543 of 571 (795145)
12-06-2016 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-16-2015 2:20 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:

It is the very act of that creation that damns such a God.


jar writes:

If God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will get damned then that God is evil.


What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no.
So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions?
Were we to argue in court could we accuse God of negligence based simply on the attribute of foreknowledge?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-16-2015 2:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 9:06 PM Phat has responded
 Message 547 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 12:31 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 544 of 571 (795146)
12-06-2016 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Asgara
12-06-2016 7:05 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Asgara writes:

If this god does not know the outcome then people have to quit using the term omniscient concerning this god.

But does that then mean that we are limiting God to our preferred definition of Him?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:05 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:52 PM Phat has responded

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 545 of 571 (795147)
12-06-2016 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Phat
12-06-2016 7:35 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
What does your 'preferred definition' of him have to do with this? Either he is omniscient or he is not. You tell me which. I don't want dictionary definitions, I don't want word salad. It is a simple question.... is the god you worship omniscient or not?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:11 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 546 of 571 (795153)
12-06-2016 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-06-2016 7:33 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:

What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results?

You still don't get it.

What the person does is irrelevant. If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.

It really is that simple.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:09 AM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13231
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 547 of 571 (795158)
12-07-2016 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-06-2016 7:33 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
quote:

What if God has foreknowledge and creates someone who will break their leg? Or fall off a ciff? or commit treason? Is God responsible for any of those results? I would say no.

Why would you say no ? We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ? Why ? Surely God can live up to any standard that we would expect from a mere human.

quote:

So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if we freely chose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we freely chose to be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves? Is foreknowledge itself the sticking point in these discussions

Foreknowledge - or at least a very good idea of what will happen - is an important part of it. But so is the act of creation - and not just of us, but of everything else.

Given the usual abilities attributed to God, we might rephrase your words this way:


So...if God creates everyone and effectively tells us that we become the decisions we make, what if he manipulates us so that we choose to ignore Jesus Christ? What if we are manipulated into being be selfish, greedy, or manipulative? Is God responsible to keep us from damning ourselves just because he made us do it ?

You call all these things "free choices" but none of them are conscious choices for us. But they are God's conscious choices made before we could do anything, and which we have no power to avoid. How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-06-2016 7:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:06 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 548 of 571 (795159)
12-07-2016 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by PaulK
12-07-2016 12:31 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
How then can we be responsible for them, if God is not ?

Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan. Our responsibility is in choosing our leader. There is no default. One thing that I have noticed in reading scripture is that God tells the doers of evil to depart that he never knew them. which could mean that God has no foreknowledge of evil...He merely allowed it as a possibility. Evil is never actualized until someone chooses it. Given that there is an alternative choice...through our Lord Jesus Christ...I would say that God has already fulfilled His responsibility and it is up to us to actualize it.
We can and do hold people responsible for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. Do you insist that God must be held to a lesser standard ?
First of all, humans have no power or authority to hold God to any standard...despite the claims by jar that one of the Gods of scripture is corrected by humans and learns on the job. That is the silliest notion of a Creator of all seen and unseen that I have ever heard. The problem is that many people envision God as a creation of the human mind anyway...which makes this whole conversation superfluous.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 12:31 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2016 1:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 549 of 571 (795160)
12-07-2016 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by jar
12-06-2016 9:06 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.
What if God only knows that we have free will? What if He has intentionally left our destiny up to us?

In this case I would admit that God is not all knowing, but I would add that this is a decision by His choice...so as to leave us responsible for our destiny.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by jar, posted 12-06-2016 9:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 12-07-2016 8:05 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 550 of 571 (795161)
12-07-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Asgara
12-06-2016 7:52 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Either he is omniscient or he is not. You tell me which.
OK, Dear. He has intentionally left your destiny up to yourself. make the most of it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Asgara, posted 12-06-2016 7:52 PM Asgara has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13231
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 551 of 571 (795162)
12-07-2016 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
12-07-2016 1:06 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
quote:

Because we have a choice to submit to God or satan.

Which, in this scenario - like all our other choices - has been dictated by God.

That is no reason at all not to hold God responsible.

quote:

One thing that I have noticed in reading scripture is that God tells the doers of evil to depart that he never knew them. which could mean that God has no foreknowledge of evil...He merely allowed it as a possibility.


Of course in the text that is rejection, not a lack of foreknowledge (not only because that is what the context indicates, but also because the same lack of foreknowledge would apply to those who were not guilty - unless God did not allow them that possibility)

quote:

First of all, humans have no power or authority to hold God to any standard...

In the only sense that matters to this discussion we surely do. Enforcement is not an issue, only evaluation.

quote:

despite the claims by jar that one of the Gods of scripture is corrected by humans and learns on the job. That is the silliest notion of a Creator of all seen and unseen that I have ever heard.

You can't blame jar for the Bible. He didn't write a word of it.

quote:

The problem is that many people envision God as a creation of the human mind anyway...which makes this whole conversation superfluous.

It doesn't seem to be so, unless you are one of those people...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:06 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 552 of 571 (795168)
12-07-2016 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Phat
12-07-2016 1:09 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:

jar writes:

If the God has foreknowledge that a person will be damned and still creates that person then the God is a monster.

What if God only knows that we have free will? What if He has intentionally left our destiny up to us?

In this case I would admit that God is not all knowing, but I would add that this is a decision by His choice...so as to leave us responsible for our destiny.

Then God does not have foreknowledge and the example I provided does not apply.

The problem is when Christians claim God is omniscient.

If God is not omniscient then God is also not all powerful.

And if God is not omniscient then God is capable of making mistakes.

Which brings us back to many of the Gods described in the Bible stories, a God that is not all knowing, that does not know the future, that does make mistakes and that does need correcting at times.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Phat, posted 12-07-2016 1:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 12:23 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 553 of 571 (795193)
12-08-2016 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jar
12-07-2016 8:05 AM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
The problem is when Christians claim God is omniscient.
No, I believe that the problem comes when people claim to be omniscient regarding GOD and that by claiming we know Him so well, we actually create division among people here on earth. Let me ask you this: In your belief, is GOD omniscient? Also please explain to me yet again the difference between GOD, God, and god.(One of jars educated beliefs discussed at length elsewhere on EvC)

jar writes:

If God is not omniscient then God is also not all powerful.

so now we are talking about the God that humans create. GOD apparently is unknowable, though my belief asserts that holy communion can at least be established with GOD through Jesus Christ. To me, the idea that the Creator of all seen and unseen is not all-powerful stems from a different religion and understanding than the one I was brought up in.

jar writes:

And if God is not omniscient then God is capable of making mistakes.

Would you say that GOD can make mistakes?

jar writes:

Which brings us back to many of the Gods described in the Bible stories, a God that is not all knowing, that does not know the future, that does make mistakes and that does need correcting at times.

The God of your imagination certainly seems to be agreeable to this philosophy. The God of my imagination is against such blasphemy.

The problem is the difference between the Gods we create and the GOD.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jar, posted 12-07-2016 8:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 3:05 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 554 of 571 (795201)
12-08-2016 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
12-08-2016 12:23 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
Phat writes:

No, I believe that the problem comes when people claim to be omniscient regarding GOD and that by claiming we know Him so well, we actually create division among people here on earth. Let me ask you this: In your belief, is GOD omniscient?

If GOD is omniscient the GOD is evil. According to the Bible God is NOT omniscient.

Who claims to know GOD? Certainly not me?

Phat writes:

GOD apparently is unknowable, though my belief asserts that holy communion can at least be established with GOD through Jesus Christ.

Yet you never explain how that might be possible.

Phat writes:

To me, the idea that the Creator of all seen and unseen is not all-powerful stems from a different religion and understanding than the one I was brought up in.

Yet according to the Bible that is exactly the case. The God described in the Bible is often unsure, afraid, inept, petty, ignorant, dishonest, sly, untrustworthy, cruel, unjust...

Phat writes:

Would you say that GOD can make mistakes?

The Bible stories have the God character admitting he has made mistakes.

Phat writes:

The God of your imagination certainly seems to be agreeable to this philosophy. The God of my imagination is against such blasphemy.

The problem is the difference between the Gods we create and the GOD.

The God found in Genesis 2 & 3 is not of my imagination, it is the product of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the stories. The God that wrestles with Jacob is not of my imagination but the imagination of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the story. The God of Exodus is not the product of my imagination but of them what wrote, edited, redacted and translated the story.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 12:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:00 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 555 of 571 (795215)
12-08-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by jar
12-08-2016 3:05 PM


Re: Foreknowledge and Free Will
jar writes:

Who claims to know GOD?

Lots of people. And lots of them have read the Bible and studied it thoroughly...yet few have reached the conclusion that you have. So perhaps a better question would be Who claims to know the Bible and how have they arrived at their conclusions?

We are discussing God and Omniscience based on the Bibles revelation as to who God is.

I have no doubt that you have read the Bible and that you teach it as you understand it. I also know that many have not read the Bible...I dont claim to be an expert. But I also know that many have read the bible and they teach it a lot different than you do. I dont believe that they are all simply con artists. There are many men who read it and understand it...my Pastor is one of them. When I ask him about some of what we discuss, his response is that the people whom i talk with are not believers.

Thus, one major difference I see between you and the others is that you have not accepted the "new religion" that you claim Paul and the redactors teach and have spread.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 3:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by jar, posted 12-08-2016 7:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 557 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:20 AM Phat has responded

  
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