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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 571 of 636 (817995)
08-22-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-22-2017 4:42 AM


Re: Free Will and determinism from my Christian perspective
Phat writes:

jar is, of course, the one at EvC responsible for your enlightened thinking.


I wouldn't necessarily say that. I'd say that jar's viewpoint has helped me to express mine more clearly.

Phat writes:

... I don't like his interpretation of Christianity. The whole Matthew 25 we are responsible schtick, because people don't even have to believe anything anymore. they simply have to do unto the least.


So why don't you have any argument against it, other than that you don't like it?

Phat writes:

What was He?


I think He was a fictional character, probably based on an amalgamation of itinerant preachers, much like Elmer Gantry.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I'd start by saying that "in the beginning was the word" has nothing to do with Jesus.


So tell me what you think it means.

It's obviously figurative. "The word became flesh" ought to be a clue to that. It would be hard to tell everything the author(s) meant by it without a thorough study - and I haven't done that. It seems safe to say though that Jesus wasn't literally a word.

Phat writes:

So for you God is an unnecessary fiction in our minds and you feel it worthwhile to challenge religious minds with secular common sense.


Yes.

Incidentally, is "secular common sense" different from any other kind of common sense?

Phat writes:

So in your opinion, what does the author of john mean?


There's no easy answer to that. It would require a line-by-line study and I don't feel much inclined to do that. It might be more productive for you to try to understand whether the doctrines you have been spoon-fed make any sense.

Phat writes:

And why should I accept your definition when over 75% of the commentators, (yes, they have read the Bible, jar ) explain it differently?


Those commentators have an axe to grind. I don't. But I couldn't care less what you accept. I'd rather have you figure it out for yourself.

Phat writes:

Some of us want to replace God with ourselves


If there was a God, we wouldn't have to replace Him. As it is, he isn't feeding the hungry, etc. so we have no choice but to do it ourselves.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How can you learn anything if you don't get a chance to change your behaviour?


What do you mean by chance? I have issues with that word....

Where's the ambiguity?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-22-2017 4:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 572 of 636 (842965)
11-11-2018 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by ringo
07-10-2017 12:23 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

How could GOD conceivably not have foreknowledge?


ringo writes:


Omniscience and omnipotence are made-up qualities, like Rumpelstiltskin's ability to spin straw into gold. It has no connection with reality.

On the one hand you have a point in that humans make this stuff up. On the other hand, GOD if GOD exists created us long before we even had the imagination to make Him up. I am arguing that GOD may exist in reality. You may bray about lack of evidence, but I am claiming (again) that evidence is an unnecessary precondition of this argument.

You have to give the concept of Belief more credit.

ringo writes:

Truth may not be conclusive but false is.

And to that, I would argue that no solid case as been made falsifying the belief. I would also again ask why you keep grinding this axe that you claim not to be grinding. Is it simply to hone your clever argumentative skills? (I will admit that that reason is part of my motive)
We don't need evidence against.
Agreed. What you need to do is to consider belief as a viable option.
What matters is whether the stories are true. If not, it doesn't really matter why the authors made them up.
You claim not to need evidence against the idea. What is frustrating is that you took the trademark---one message among many---and threw out other messages plus the whole point of the stories in general...which is Christ. Or are you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT? Oh, and I almost forgot...I am posting in another topic right now...so let's get back to our discussion here. (sorry! )

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 07-10-2017 12:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 573 of 636 (842968)
11-11-2018 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Phat
11-11-2018 1:58 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

You have to give the concept of Belief more credit.


No. I really don't.

Phat writes:

... I would argue that no solid case as been made falsifying the belief.


As I said, we don't need negative evidence. All we need is lack of positive evidence.

Phat writes:

I would also again ask why you keep grinding this axe that you claim not to be grinding.


I have no axe to grind. Almost everybody I know is religious. My life would be a lot easier if I believed the nonsense that you believe.

Phat writes:

What you need to do is to consider belief as a viable option.


No. I don't.

Phat writes:

What is frustrating is that you took the trademark---one message among many---and threw out other messages plus the whole point of the stories in general...which is Christ.


No, Christ is not the point. The message is the point. And you're the one who throws out the parts of the message that you don't like.

Phat writes:

Or are you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT?


Of course I am. The messenger is not the message. The map is not the territory.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:15 PM ringo has responded
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 574 of 636 (842971)
11-11-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:10 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

re you going to challenge the assumption that Jesus Christ is the central message of the NT?


ringo writes:

Of course I am. The messenger is not the message. The map is not the territory.

So in the Book Of Ringo, what is the central message of the NT? Can what is written support your assertion...apart from your beloved Matthew 25?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:32 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 575 of 636 (842973)
11-11-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:10 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Almost everybody I know is religious.
Out of curiosity, do you ever argue(or discuss these things) with them? Or do you all talk about other things and live peacefully side by side? Also...do you respect any of them for what they do apart from their religion? Would you honestly think they would be better off without the religion? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 576 of 636 (842981)
11-11-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:15 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

... what is the central message of the NT?


quote:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Old Testament too.

Phat writes:

Can what is written support your assertion...


See above.

Phat writes:

...apart from your beloved Matthew 25?


The question is: Why is Matthew 25 so behated by you?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 577 of 636 (842983)
11-11-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:18 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

Out of curiosity, do you ever argue(or discuss these things) with them?


No. They probably would call themselves "fundamentalists" but they're not as crazy as American fundamentalists.

Phat writes:

Also...do you respect any of them for what they do apart from their religion?


They're not very different from me, except that they talk matter-of-factly about Jesus being real - and I try not to laugh too overtly.

Phat writes:

Would you honestly think they would be better off without the religion?


Hard to say.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 578 of 636 (842985)
11-11-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:32 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
I don't hate Matthew 25...I just find it simplistic that jar, in particular, can talk of a Bible with a "God" that humans created...a Serpent that told the truth and was a plot device, and yet wax poetic about Matthew 25 as the central message to be hung on the wall. If anything, I'm jealous. Matthew 25 is a great message...though I don't see the Goats as being Christians nor do I see the message suggesting global inclusivism.

I get angry that he preaches the bible this way...of focusing on us as the prime responsibility and somehow able to make it without the very messenger which told us the message. But I'll admit that you defended your point quite well. The two commandments summarize the whole enchilada.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:47 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 579 of 636 (842987)
11-11-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:42 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

...though I don't see the Goats as being Christians nor do I see the message suggesting global inclusivism.


You don't want to see Christians as goats. You don't want to give up your exclusive get-out-of-hell-free club.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 580 of 636 (842991)
11-11-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:47 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
ou don't want to see Christians as goats.
It is certainly wrong to lump them all into one category. Goats will come from all varieties of people...even those who obey the message and live their lives on their own terms.

ringo writes:

You don't want to give up your exclusive get-out-of-hell-free club.

I don't believe that if hell exists it was created for people. It was allowed to exist as a place for free-willed angels who didn't want to live under House Rules.

What many don't understand is that life in Heaven, as many believe it to be, would not in any way be boring or restrictive. Granted you would have to learn that you couldn't smoke inside. I would say to those stubborn free willed spirits that they would be better off listening rather than clinging to their independence.

I could argue that you want a right to be left alone and get to smoke in your own house should you want to. That's a bad thing.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:58 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 581 of 636 (842993)
11-11-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:55 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

I could argue that you want a right to be left alone and get to smoke in your own house should you want to. That's a bad thing.


Why?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 582 of 636 (842994)
11-11-2018 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:58 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Because smoking shortens your life. You can forever argue that you have a right to live your life the way you want...even as you urge me to follow the message...but you can't argue that smoking is good for some and not others.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:02 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 583 of 636 (842996)
11-11-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by Phat
11-11-2018 3:00 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

Because smoking shortens your life.


Smoking might shorten my life. A lot of things might shorten my life. Why should somebody else get to pick and choose which ones I can do?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:07 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 584 of 636 (842998)
11-11-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 583 by ringo
11-11-2018 3:02 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Did you ever listen to your Father when you lived under his roof, or did you do what you wanted even back then?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:17 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 585 of 636 (843000)
11-11-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Phat
11-11-2018 3:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
Phat writes:

Did you ever listen to your Father when you lived under his roof, or did you do what you wanted even back then?


Like most children, I got away with as much as I could.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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