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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 586 of 636 (843001)
11-11-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by ringo
11-11-2018 3:17 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge** Remix.
I suppose I did too. But my Dad knew that I did a few things he didn't approve of, and he stayed silent and gave me my free will. He kept an eye on me though.

You may claim that nobody keeps an eye on humanity apart from other humans...which is supported by evidence.

I would argue that a loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell simply for being stubborn. Which lends support to the argument that Christianity is based on what we do rather than on what we believe.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:17 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 587 of 636 (843011)
11-11-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Stile
05-17-2016 2:03 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Double Post

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Stile, posted 05-17-2016 2:03 PM Stile has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 588 of 636 (843012)
11-11-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Stile
05-17-2016 2:03 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Stile writes:

We're just going through the movie, now.

God could re-wind it, fast forward it, play this part, skip to that part... God could know all of it, but it was still created by you and I and everyone else involved during the creation of the universe.

Whether or not you like that, or are comfortable with that... is irrelevant to it being a possible idea for how God could read our future while we still have just as much free-will and control-over-our-choices as if we made all our decisions in the present.

Try this:

Let's say we're making all our decisions in the present, and someone is "recording the universe."
Once the universe is done... completed... dead, maybe or whatever... this "recording" would include all the free-will decisions all of us ever made.

These were some great philosophical discussions! I believe that we can have free will even though God knows what we will choose,. The reason is that He was as much there when we choose it as He is now. The fact that we can't choose anything different only means that one can only vote once. The act of choosing it freezes out any possibility of choosing a different path...it does not place the blame on God for knowing the choice. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Stile, posted 05-17-2016 2:03 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Stile, posted 11-11-2018 5:32 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3281
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 589 of 636 (843015)
11-11-2018 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Phat
11-11-2018 5:09 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

These were some great philosophical discussions! I believe that we can have free will even though God knows what we will choose.

I think it's possible.

The reason is that He was as much there when we choose it as He is now. The fact that we can't choose anything different only means that one can only vote once. The act of choosing it freezes out any possibility of choosing a different path...it does not place the blame on God for knowing the choice. Comments?

How do you like the fact that free will such as this destroys omnipotence?

That is... if God knew all our decisions before creating us or the entire universe... then we don't have free-will.
The only way we would have free-will is if there's a time before creating us (or the entire universe) that God has no idea what we'll do. Then He creates us... and then he goes "oh, didn't see that happening..."

Or, is God powerful enough to "turn off" his all-knowing-ness for long enough to create us, and then turn it back on after we've been created and made all our free-will choices?

Really... I think the idea of "omnipotence" is kind of childish and doesn't have much of a place in serious discussion.

Is God powerful enough to create a universe while not being all-powerful in it?

Who is stronger? The man who knows he is impervious and goes into battle for what's right?
Or the man who knows he can die... but goes into battle for what's right anyway?

Is God strong enough to face annihilation and follow through with doing the right thing regardless?
Or is He so scared that He must be "all-powerful" so that He never has to face such a situation?

The concept of omnipotence doesn't really make sense, with any sophisticated idea of "strength" anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 5:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 5:42 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 590 of 636 (843016)
11-11-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Stile
11-11-2018 5:32 PM


Re: Definition of free will
How do you like the fact that free will such as this destroys omnipotence?

That is... if God knew all our decisions before creating us or the entire universe... then we don't have free-will.
The only way we would have free-will is if there's a time before creating us (or the entire universe) that God has no idea what we'll do. Then He creates us... and then he goes "oh, didn't see that happening..."

He couldn't very well give us free will without not knowing at some point. All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. Did God foreknow that Lucifer would turn against Him? Is ringo correct in that Satan is metaphorical and represents our own desire to be free from constraint? Or is it possible that God, being omnipresent within time, can know a decision made by others without actually being responsible for that decision? In other words, just because He knows what I will choose does not mean I didnt freely choose it---it only means that I cant ever choose apart from how I choose. Does that make any sense?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Stile, posted 11-11-2018 5:32 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 2:35 AM Phat has responded
 Message 596 by Stile, posted 11-12-2018 10:02 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 591 of 636 (843036)
11-12-2018 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Phat
11-11-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

He couldn't very well give us free will without not knowing at some point. All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. Did God foreknow that Lucifer would turn against Him? Is ringo correct in that Satan is metaphorical and represents our own desire to be free from constraint? Or is it possible that God, being omnipresent within time, can know a decision made by others without actually being responsible for that decision? In other words, just because He knows what I will choose does not mean I didnt freely choose it---it only means that I cant ever choose apart from how I choose. Does that make any sense?

Don't you think that all this is as nonsensical as arguing over the number angels that can fit on a pin head?

I mean you even said it yourself All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. But they're not even hypothetical they're simply ludicrous. What colour is a leprechaun's coat?

You have your all powerful all knowing 'god' creating a devil and not being able to do anything about it, then creating people that he knows will have to finish up in his hell. Just how can you believe any of this silly, silly, childish rubbish? It beats me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 5:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 592 of 636 (843037)
11-12-2018 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Tangle
11-12-2018 2:35 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Arguing over the angels is a simple discussion about the size of angels relative to the size of a given pin. This discussion focuses more on the characters we imagine and the possible attributes of said characters. You act as if imagination is a childish thing and that adults should discuss more mundane aspects of reality. Relax a little!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 2:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 3:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 593 of 636 (843038)
11-12-2018 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Phat
11-12-2018 2:50 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Arguing over the angels is a simple discussion about the size of angels relative to the size of a given pin.

Yes, utterly stupid isn't it?

But This discussion focuses more on the characters we imagine and the possible attributes of said characters.

Well at least you're agreeing that the characters are imaginary.

You act as if imagination is a childish thing and that adults should discuss more mundane aspects of reality. Relax a little!

It *is* childish fot adults to talk about imaginary things as if they are real.

What's mundane about reality?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 2:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 594 of 636 (843039)
11-12-2018 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 593 by Tangle
11-12-2018 3:36 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

It *is* childish fot adults to talk about imaginary things as if they are real.

What's mundane about reality?

It has limitations. It can be depressing at times. Think of what you might feel if you were placed in the situation of these people:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37791211

Belief can be comforting in times of crises. Belief in a God of unlimited power helps us to deal with our own times of powerlessness.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 3:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 4:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 11-12-2018 10:42 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 595 of 636 (843042)
11-12-2018 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

It has limitations. It can be depressing at times

Reality - ie life - can be both mundane and depressing? Well yes, along with all the other things it can be, like painful, annoying exhilarating, joyous, wonderous, happy etc etc.

And we make stories up about all these things to entertain us. What we don't do is believe them to be real.

Think of what you might feel if you were placed in the situation of these people

I'd feel lied to by everybody. And the final lie is that Allah wiil save them. He won't. The only thing that can save them are our institutions. If we spent as much money and placed as much belief and effort in democratic institutions as we do in wishfull thinking tosh, we'd make far more progress.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3281
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 596 of 636 (843047)
11-12-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Phat
11-11-2018 5:42 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

In other words, just because He knows what I will choose does not mean I didnt freely choose it---it only means that I cant ever choose apart from how I choose. Does that make any sense?

It depends on the context.

Or is it possible that God, being omnipresent within time, can know a decision made by others without actually being responsible for that decision?

It is possible if there was a point in time before God knows-what-will-happen where God didn't-know-what-would-happen.

The problem is that God creates everyone, too.

Think of this scenario:

God sits and thinks.
-What would happen if I made a Phat? Oh... that's interesting.
-What if I changed Phat a bit and made him like this, then what? Oh... nifty.
-Now if I tweak a bit of the situations Phat encounters... what will happen? Yes... yes, this is the Phat I want to create.
*poof* universe is created with Phat included

If that's what's done - then Phat has free-will and Phat and God share responsibility for Phat's actions (because God still created the universe Phat exists within.)

However, think of this situation:

God sits and thinks.
-Phat's going to do this in his life.
-I'm going to alter Phat so that he now does this.
-I'm going to change the situations Phat experiences in his life so that he now does this.
*poof* universe is created with Phat as planned by God.

If that's what's done - then Phat has no free-will. God has all the responsibility for Phat's actions.

Can't have both.
If God always knows what Phat will do - and makes Phat... then no free-will.
If, at some point before creating Phat or the universe at all, God has no idea what Phat will do - and then makes Phat and finds out... then yes free-will.

Which one is the "stronger" God?
Is God strong enough that He always knows everything - no exceptions? ("No exceptions" is a restriction on power, isn't it?)
Or is God strong enough to create free-will? (Not knowing what someone will do until after creating them is a restriction on power, isn't it?)

My point isn't that one is actually stronger than the other.
My point is simply that any idea that "omnipotence" makes sense is childish and silly. It's nothing more than a my-Dad-can-beat-up-your-Dad wish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 5:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:35 AM Stile has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 597 of 636 (843048)
11-12-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Stile
11-12-2018 10:02 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Stile writes:

Can't have both.
If God always knows what Phat will do - and makes Phat... then no free-will.
If, at some point before creating Phat or the universe at all, God has no idea what Phat will do - and then makes Phat and finds out... then yes free-will.

Not sure I agree, but let me play with this scenario as I type out my reply. (By the way, I have been encouraged to draw out these scenarios in response to some that you yourself drew out earlier in this thread.. )

God exists eternally in the past, present, and future. Thus, consider:

God creates Stile in point X of time. God exists along with Stile at every point that Stile is alive. Critics argue that if God knows what Stile will decide in year 30, Stile never had a free will. I disagree. Just because God observed what Stile chose to do in year 30 was known by God at point X, the time Stile was created does not mean that Stile had no possibility of choosing otherwise. Stile has every possibility of choice at any given point in his life, limited only by what others do to Stile to alter his choice. Stile still chooses to do what he does, and the point that he could never choose to do otherwise is moot. Stile can only choose what Stile freely chooses, based on his evaluation of the choice at that point in time. It is irrelevant if God foreknew the choice since God exists eternally anyway.

Besides...the argument that we cant make another choice than the one we make is silly. We can only choose one choice at any given point in time.

The argument must thus hinge on whether God causes us to do certain things or whether we ourselves do them apart from His control. In order for free will to truly exist, it is irrelevant if God foresees the choices. It is relevant only in that God cannot know our choice at that point before He actually creates us at point X.

Put another way, Lucifer was never created as a planned Satan.

Satan represented the actualized decision of a free-willed Lucifer.

God only created the possibility of an actualized decision that He could not know at that point before Lucifer was given the free will to rebel.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Stile, posted 11-12-2018 10:02 AM Stile has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 598 of 636 (843049)
11-12-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Belief can be comforting in times of crises. Belief in a God of unlimited power helps us to deal with our own times of powerlessness.


Belief can also be a powerful tool for the ones who are causing the crisis: "Don't think about the Church being made of solid gold while you have nothing to eat; some day, you'll have a solid gold mansion in heaven."

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 599 of 636 (843050)
11-12-2018 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by ringo
11-12-2018 10:42 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Im saying that God knows when we freely choose Him and doesn't know when we freely choose otherwise. (depart from me I never knew you)


ringo writes:

In Matthew 7:23 Jesus was referring specifically to false prophets but more generally to doing good works as opposed to paying lip service to religion. He used the word "know" not in the sense of knowing facts but in the sense of knowing a person. What he was saying was, "You were never my friend." It has nothing to do with omniscience. In fact, the implication was that He DID omnisciently know all along that you weren't his friend, even though you claimed you were.

This is what I'm talking about hypothetically when God allowed free will. He metaphorically allowed for the possibility that one of His angels would become "unknown"...though He had to not know whether or not that angel would choose to become unknown and take the bait. If God foreknew that Lucifer would reject the communion, there would be no point to any of this. It would just be an alien overlord playing mind games with Himself. If, however, God allowed the possibility but did not know the outcome, it would involve a freely made decision by every created being to either embrace or reject Communion. Does that make any hypothetical sense?

To further elaborate...God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it. Given that He exists eternally, His foreknowing would be tied inexorably with your decision at a given point in time.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 11-12-2018 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 11-12-2018 11:18 AM Phat has responded
 Message 601 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 12:27 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 600 of 636 (843052)
11-12-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
11-12-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

It would just be an alien overlord playing mind games with Himself.


Or worse, an alien overlord playing mind games with believers. Or more likely, just believers playing mind games with themselves.

Phat writes:

God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it.


If there was ever anything that He didn't know, He can't be omniscient. I don't see any way to tap-dance around that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:43 PM ringo has responded

  
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