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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 601 of 636 (843054)
11-12-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
11-12-2018 10:52 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

To further elaborate...God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it. Given that He exists eternally, His foreknowing would be tied inexorably with your decision at a given point in time.

He's either all knowing or he ain't.

If he ain't, then he ain't omnicient and if he knew that he couldn't know what would happen but did it anyway, then he's just reckless. If he's reckless - ie doing something without care for the outcome - he aint all loving or perfect. You want a reckless god?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 10:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 602 of 636 (843062)
11-12-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Tangle
11-12-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

He's either all-knowing or he ain't.

If he ain't, then he ain't omniscient and if he knew that he couldn't know what would happen but did it anyway, then he's just reckless. If he's reckless - ie doing something without care for the outcome - he ain't all loving or perfect. Do you want a reckless god?

First lets set some parameters here, you and I. For the purpose of this argument, we are totally imagining and making up this God. So why are you setting the bar such that He always ends up holding the bag? Why can't you consider that He wants His creation to develop some responsibility and grow a pair? Why must your God be so wimpy? OK...lets assume He always knew what would happen....it still does not make Him responsible for the decisions you make...regardless whether He knew about them or not. And don't give me the argument that you couldn't decide otherwise....its lame. The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 12:27 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 5:50 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 603 of 636 (843063)
11-12-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by ringo
11-12-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Definition of free will
If there was ever anything that He didn't know, He can't be omniscient. I don't see any way to tap-dance around that.
OK let's roll with your scenario. How does that remove your free will? The only thing you can't decide is something He cant know. Which means that you can only decide something He knows. To which I say boo hoo. You still had free will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 11-12-2018 11:18 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 604 of 636 (843069)
11-12-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:40 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

For the purpose of this argument, we are totally imagining and making up this God.

Unlike all the others? How come I can't tell the difference when you're 'imagining' and when you're not?

So why are you setting the bar such that He always ends up holding the bag? Why can't you consider that He wants His creation to develop some responsibility and grow a pair? Why must your God be so wimpy?

Because it makes no sense at all. I'm just pointing out the obvious problems with your set up.

OK...lets assume He always knew what would happen....it still does not make Him responsible for the decisions you make...regardless whether He knew about them or not.

If he knew I would fail, but did it anyway - he's evil, whether I am right or wrong.

And don't give me the argument that you couldn't decide otherwise....its lame. The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.

But this god made me human and fallible. He gave me aggression, envy and greed. He set me up to fail. He gave me a mother but no father, I grew up in drug ridden gang land. My older brother was a dealer until he got shot.I can hardly read or write and I've never had a job. I never had a chance.

Or as Hitchens used to say, ''we are created sick and commanded to be well what kind of god would do that? it sounds like some Nazi experiment.

The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.

No, the real issue is that are only a couple of ways out of this mess, the first is that this god is, in fact evil, the other is that it's all a total fabrication and it is what it looks like - we're evolved apes making the best of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 605 of 636 (843072)
11-12-2018 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by Tangle
11-12-2018 5:50 PM


Re: Definition of free will
If he knew I would fail, but did it anyway - he's evil, whether I am right or wrong.
So you are suggesting that God only create people who will succeed? If so, how does that keep them from being zombies?

Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play...

the real issue is that are only a couple of ways out of this mess, the first is that this god is, in fact evil, the other is that it's all a total fabrication and it is what it looks like - we're evolved apes making the best of it
Which is obviously how you see reality. But reality also has some people who are evil. Hell is kinda like weeding out the bad DNA. and as for "chance to make it" there is no chance. There is only chosen purpose.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2018 5:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 3:28 AM Phat has responded
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 606 of 636 (843079)
11-13-2018 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
11-12-2018 11:52 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

So you are suggesting that God only create people who will succeed? If so, how does that keep them from being zombies?

No, I'm saying that the whole idea of god's creation in the way you think of it is dumb because the way you state it traps you in a paradox. If he knows that the outcome of his creation will create evil and suffering but he does it anyway, he's evil. But if he creates us without knowing the outcome he's not an omniscient God. Your God is all knowing and can't be evil ergo, your premise/s are wrong.

Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play...

And I say that he should not create a situation where he knows evil will occur at all.

But reality also has some people who are evil.

Yes, hence your god is either evil or reckless or doesn't exist

Hell is kinda like weeding out the bad DNA.

But he created the bad DNA (and commanded it to be good.)

and as for "chance to make it" there is no chance. There is only chosen purpose.

Crap. There is no purpose and if their was it could only be an evil one. Tell me, what is the purpose of creating a child that he knows he will send to hell? If there is no such thing as chance - and rolling two people's DNA together is almost the definition of chance - why are some people born into the ideal circumstances to fail whilst others win life's lottery?

Why do you have to be born of Christian parents to go to heaven - why is that not chance?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 4:12 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 607 of 636 (843080)
11-13-2018 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 606 by Tangle
11-13-2018 3:28 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Why do you have to be born of Christian parents to go to heaven - why is that not chance?
I never suggested that you did. You will be judged on how you respond to the challenges you are faced with in life no matter where you were born or what you believe...and if there is a hell, you won't end up there simply for believing wrong...you will end up there only by knowingly and willfully missing the mark. Are you going to argue that a standard is unfair? Everyone will be judged based on their own unique standard...not on a global one

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 3:28 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 4:33 AM Phat has responded
 Message 609 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:07 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 608 of 636 (843083)
11-13-2018 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by Phat
11-13-2018 4:12 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

I never suggested that you did. You will be judged on how you respond to the challenges you are faced with in life no matter where you were born or what you believe.

How very modern of you. Billions of other Christians disagree and, of course, there's no way of knowing who is right.

Are you going to argue that a standard is unfair?

Are you kidding me? Of course it's unfair. But not only is it unfair, it's evil.

Everyone will be judged based on their own unique standard...not on a global one

You have absolutely no way of knowing that; it's pure wishful thinking and rationalisation.

But we're off topic and you've ignored my entire post except the very last sentence. The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 4:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 10:31 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:36 AM Tangle has responded

  
Porkncheese
Member
Posts: 116
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 609 of 636 (843086)
11-13-2018 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by Phat
11-13-2018 4:12 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Hi sorry to interrupt. Can I please have a theological explanation to destiny without the religion vs science boxing gloves. I'm agnostic remember.

God knows the future right?
So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt.
This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew wat Judas was going to do.
Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control.

The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work wen God already has it written in stone.

It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel usless


This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 4:12 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:12 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 610 of 636 (843091)
11-13-2018 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Porkncheese
11-13-2018 7:07 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Just saw this. OK, Let me go start your topic. You wrote the opening post right here.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:07 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 611 of 636 (843103)
11-13-2018 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Tangle
11-13-2018 4:33 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.

Perhaps.

Or god is operating at the speed of light and has infinite mass. This would mean time as we know it does not exist for god.
god would be omnipotent and omniscient in a sense and yet choose to remain blinded for reasons humanity may not understand.

You call it evil I get that but perhaps that is the price to be paid for our existence. I would rather there be something than nothing otherwise I could not enjoy my buttered sour dough bread.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 4:33 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:10 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 612 of 636 (843104)
11-13-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by Tangle
11-13-2018 4:33 AM


Re: Definition of free will
The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.
Nonsense. Who cares what God could know? To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow. Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 4:33 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 613 of 636 (843105)
11-13-2018 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Phat
11-12-2018 3:43 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

How does that remove your free will?


I didn't say it removes free will. I said you can't have both omniscience and free will. By trying to give us free will, you're diminishing God's knowledge and power.

Phat writes:

The only thing you can't decide is something He cant know. Which means that you can only decide something He knows. To which I say boo hoo. You still had free will.


No, our free will doesn't depend on God's lack of omniscience. Our free will depends on what God will do to us if we don't do HIS will. It doesn't matter whether He knows beforehand what we're going to do. Whatever we "choose", He does HIS will.

That isn't free will for us. Heaven or Hell is not a reasonable choice.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 3:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:46 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 614 of 636 (843107)
11-13-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
11-12-2018 11:52 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play...


What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 11-12-2018 11:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 615 of 636 (843108)
11-13-2018 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:41 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Oh, I think I get it. To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.

In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:54 AM Phat has responded

  
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