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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 616 of 636 (843109)
11-13-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:45 AM


Re: Definition of free will
What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.
True, it does sound attractive. And it does place God on the stand. He now must explain why He does not intervene as we suggest He should.

Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:55 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 617 of 636 (843111)
11-13-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:46 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.


And to you, free will means having compleeeeeeete freedom to choose milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate - and you ignore the threat that you'll be tortured eternally for choosing vanilla.

Phat writes:

In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.


Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:46 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:59 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 618 of 636 (843112)
11-13-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?


I predict that he won't. But apologists will continue with their clumsy attempts.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 619 of 636 (843113)
11-13-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"?
It sounds autocratic to suggest that God foreknows all destiny. If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny? Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition.

Which gives ringo compleeeeeat freedom to do whatever his pea-picking soul desires. Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest.

Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road... a road that we who are bounded by time cannot see.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 11:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 620 of 636 (843114)
11-13-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by ringo
11-13-2018 10:55 AM


Re: Definition of free will
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 10:55 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 627 by ringo, posted 11-13-2018 11:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 621 of 636 (843116)
11-13-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by 1.61803
11-13-2018 10:31 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

Or god is operating at the speed of light and has infinite mass. This would mean time as we know it does not exist for god.
god would be omnipotent and omniscient in a sense and yet choose to remain blinded for reasons humanity may not understand.[

Well that makes no sense to me, nor is it biblical so I'm going to forget that it ever happened. The teaching is tha god created us knowing full well what he was doing, and before watching an unusually hallucinogenic episode of Star Trek.

You call it evil I get that but perhaps that is the price to be paid for our existence. I would rather there be something than nothing otherwise I could not enjoy my buttered sour dough bread.

You might but the child being tortured by a paedophilic psychopath might have a different view. And in any case, you're accepting that god is ok about paedophic psychopaths.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 10:31 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 628 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 11:36 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 622 of 636 (843117)
11-13-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 619 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:59 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny?


The whole idea of "destiny" is an excuse more than anything else.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition.


Of course it's unnecessary.

Phat writes:

Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest.


Reality doesn't impose preconditions. It imposes consequences.

Phat writes:

Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road...


Then let the consequences fall where they may - but we don't need a God to impose additional arbitrary consequences of His own.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 623 of 636 (843119)
11-13-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
11-13-2018 10:36 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Who cares what God could know?

We do. If god know that he's creating suffering and evil, he's evil, if he doesn't then he's not omnicient and therefore not god, and he's then merely reckless as to his actions.

To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow.

Tosh. Reality has no agency.

Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.

Well you've missed my point by a million miles. Re-read what I said. I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:20 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 624 of 636 (843120)
11-13-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Tangle
11-13-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Definition of free will
So basically, believers trust that God exists and that it is our responsibility to tow the line...whereas you doubt that God exists but that IF He does, He had better get off His almighty arse and do His job.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 625 of 636 (843121)
11-13-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by Tangle
11-13-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Definition of free will
I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.
And I fail to see how there is even a possibility that free will would make a God necessarily evil. Unless, as you may charge, He is failing to do His job.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:18 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 626 of 636 (843123)
11-13-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
11-13-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.

What? You mean a weather forecast? Tide tables? Planetary movements? Are you just going to hope that Mars is where you want it to be when you launch your rocket?

Or do you mean that atheists don't hope for a better life for their daughters or catch a 20lb salmon or get that pay rise?

Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 627 of 636 (843124)
11-13-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
11-13-2018 11:01 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence.


Belief isn't "daring". It should be nothing more than a backup for when there is no evidence. But more often than not, it's just wishful thinking.

Phat writes:

Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.


It makes more sense to put your hope in something real.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 11:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 628 of 636 (843126)
11-13-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Tangle
11-13-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Painting someone with different views than yours as a torturing pedo sympathizer brush is pretty crappy.
Why "that" would come to mind rather than any other zillions of unsavory things is beyond me and probably says more about your state of mind than mine methinks.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 11:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 12:47 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 629 of 636 (843146)
11-13-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by 1.61803
11-13-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

Painting someone with different views than yours as a torturing pedo sympathizer brush is pretty crappy.
Why "that" would come to mind rather than any other zillions of unsavory things is beyond me and probably says more about your state of mind than mine methinks.

Am I supposed to not notice that you haven't attempted to answer the point being made?

If you missed it, it's nothing new, it's basically why does god inflict/allow suffering on his creation?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by 1.61803, posted 11-13-2018 11:36 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 9:03 AM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 630 of 636 (843186)
11-14-2018 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 629 by Tangle
11-13-2018 12:47 PM


Re: Definition of free will
Touche', I can not reconcile evil in the face of a benevolent, omnipotent god.
Im just glad we can have this conversation rather than not exist at all.

Since things do exist it seems everything affects everything.
The lion is not evil when it consumes a zebra. When some mentally deranged person commits a heinous crime against another person it is evil but how can one negate a murderer's free will to kill?
Ether there is free will for evil and good alike or there is none.
Evil may be the price we pay for our freewill. I do not know.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 9:17 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
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