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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 646 of 705 (846634)
01-09-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:32 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

Him being wrong doesn't change anything.


Of course it does. If He's wrong, you shouldn't be following Him.

Phat writes:

It may well be a choice of yours down the road.


Nope. I have never chosen to go to Hell and I never will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 647 of 705 (846636)
01-09-2019 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 642 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:28 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

This whole attitude that humans are capable of or expected to prod God into action is just silly.


It's in the Bible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30427
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 648 of 705 (846638)
01-09-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by ringo
01-09-2019 4:59 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
You have it backwards. God hardened Pharaoh's heart - i.e. He deliberately interfered with Pharaoh's natural conscience.

You miss the whole point of course, as unbelievers must. The point is that whatever we do by our own natural inclination is the same thing as God's doing it in us. Because He is the one "in whom we live and move and have our being." We cannot contradict God and God cannot contradict us because all our power to do anything at all comes directly from Him. I know it's hard to wrap your mind around but that's why you and other unbelievers have such a terrible time understanding Calvinism. Now you are going to think of all the pedantic nitpicky ways this seems wrong to you and just get me tearing my hair out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 4:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:11 PM Faith has responded
 Message 653 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 12:25 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 649 of 705 (846641)
01-09-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by Faith
01-09-2019 5:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:

We cannot contradict God and God cannot contradict us because all our power to do anything at all comes directly from Him.


If everything I do comes from God, why are you trying to argue with me?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:13 PM ringo has responded
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30427
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 650 of 705 (846643)
01-09-2019 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ringo
01-09-2019 5:11 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Yup, here we go.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:16 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 651 of 705 (846646)
01-09-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
01-09-2019 5:13 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:

Yup, here we go.


So no response. Never anything from you but empty opinions and hate.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:07 AM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4726
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 652 of 705 (846657)
01-09-2019 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by jar
08-04-2015 9:41 AM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
jar writes:

I have no idea of what would make me right with God but the Bible and the words attributed to Jesus sure in hell tell us what would get us on God's wrong side.

I would put it diggerently. The words attributed to Jesus tell us how our lives should be lived which is essentially the Golden Rule. What gets us on God's wrong side is to go against that rule.

To quote you, "It really is that simple"

Another thing that is really simple is that it's good to see you back here again. I hope all is well.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 08-04-2015 9:41 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 3:44 AM GDR has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14630
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 653 of 705 (846662)
01-10-2019 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 648 by Faith
01-09-2019 5:07 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
quote:

You miss the whole point of course, as unbelievers must. The point is that whatever we do by our own natural inclination is the same thing as God's doing it in us.

Do you have any support for that idea from the actual text of Exodus ? And isnt it also your belief that we have a natural inclination to sin? Do you really want to say that God makes us sin ?

quote:

I know it's hard to wrap your mind around but that's why you and other unbelievers have such a terrible time understanding Calvinism.

Its not us that has the problem.

quote:

Now you are going to think of all the pedantic nitpicky ways this seems wrong to you and just get me tearing my hair out.

Its not our fault that your beliefs are incoherent. If you will build a worldview out of dogma and lame excuses that problem is inevitable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Faith, posted 01-09-2019 5:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:05 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 654 of 705 (846666)
01-10-2019 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 652 by GDR
01-09-2019 8:39 PM


Re: Jesus' mission not limited to individual salvation
Notice the date of his post, GDR. jar has not yet returned.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by GDR, posted 01-09-2019 8:39 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by GDR, posted 01-11-2019 2:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30427
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 655 of 705 (846670)
01-10-2019 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by PaulK
01-10-2019 12:25 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
You miss the whole point of course, as unbelievers must. The point is that whatever we do by our own natural inclination is the same thing as God's doing it in us.

Do you have any support for that idea from the actual text of Exodus ? And isnt it also your belief that we have a natural inclination to sin? Do you really want to say that God makes us sin ?

We understand that God's causing Pharoah to commit the sin of hardening his heart against the Israelites was not His committing the sin Himself. He's the source of power for everything we do but He doesn't share in our motivations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 12:25 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by PaulK, posted 01-10-2019 11:14 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30427
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 656 of 705 (846671)
01-10-2019 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by ringo
01-09-2019 5:16 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
I do hate stupidity, yes.

And I definitely hate Antifa.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:40 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30427
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 657 of 705 (846672)
01-10-2019 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 649 by ringo
01-09-2019 5:11 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
If everything I do comes from God, why are you trying to argue with me?

That comes from God too of course, the power to do it anyway. Nothing at all happens without Him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by ringo, posted 01-10-2019 10:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 658 of 705 (846685)
01-10-2019 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Phat
01-09-2019 4:22 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

One could argue that He gave us the power and expects us to develop it.


But He didn't give us the power to stop a mass shooting, etc. If He has the power to stop it, why doesn't He use it?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Phat, posted 01-09-2019 4:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 01-10-2019 2:51 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 659 of 705 (846686)
01-10-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:07 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:

I do hate stupidity, yes.


Self-loathing is a common fundamentalist trait.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:07 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 10:43 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15985
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 660 of 705 (846688)
01-10-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
01-10-2019 9:09 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Faith writes:

That comes from God too of course, the power to do it anyway. Nothing at all happens without Him.


So He's just tripping over His own feet.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 01-10-2019 9:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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