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Author Topic:   Proofs of Evolution: A Mediocre Debate (Faith, robinrohan and their invitees)
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 295 (279463)
01-16-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
01-15-2006 9:22 PM


Re: Augustine and Parasomnium
Anyway, just my way at the time of picturing the omnipresence of Universal Mind in relation to the physical universe
What I'm wondering is whether our minds are part of this Universal Mind. If so, that makes us part of God.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-16-2006 12:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 01-15-2006 9:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 3:36 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 295 (279475)
01-16-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
01-16-2006 11:17 AM


Materialism and Evolution
it always comes back to thought, mind, etc., doesn't it. That's the "stuff" God is "made of."
The theory of evolution, I would think, would require a belief in materialism, since it's difficult to imagine a type of reality called "mentality"--that stuff of which God is made, you, Faith, say--evolving out of another type of reality called physicality.
So there's nothing but physicality. What does this mean? I think it means that there is nothing but automatic reactions to stimuli, which is no different from water running downhill or, in a more complicated way, a bush leaning toward the sun.
It doesn't seem that way to us. It seems to us that we have will, and that we perceive truths, such as mathematical truth, and these operations are not caused physically but are the result of logical, incorporeal thought.
This atmosphere of incorporeality is due to a shortcoming in the brain, which is not good at "reflecting" itself. (I was reading this book about the brain some time ago, but didn't get too far. "Reflection" is an important word in brain-talk as is "plasticity," which means that different parts of the brain have multiple functions and that different parts of the brain operate collectively to do something).
So how is this aura of incorporeality produced? Some say the brain is a computer-like device. But not only that. Some say that what matters is the algorithm, the set of instructions, not the medium through which these instructions are carried out. Computers use electrical charges, but according to this theory, you could use anything, such as in the following example:
All the operations that you do on a computer could be done in exactly the same way by giving a team of people written instructions
for moving eggs around in a football field full of egg cartons, though of course it would take longer. (By the way, a football field full of egg cartons has about one megabyte of RAM)--Matt Carmill
So if you could get enough eggs and people to move them around and just the right set of instructions, you could produce "consciousness."
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-16-2006 01:36 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-16-2006 01:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 11:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 7:25 AM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 228 of 295 (279510)
01-16-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by robinrohan
01-16-2006 1:48 PM


Re: Augustine and Parasomnium
What I'm wondering is whether our minds are part of this Universal Mind. If so, that makes us part of God.
Theologically we're not. That's the problem with models like my soup model. They can imply things that aren't true.
I'm just stopping by briefly. Will ponder later.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-16-2006 03:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by robinrohan, posted 01-16-2006 1:48 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 295 (279513)
01-16-2006 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
01-15-2006 9:22 PM


Faith
I, out of my own brand-new experience of the Far Out, responded, "Oh but it's not wrong, it's just that what science studies is something different, something smaller."
You know what, Faith, you should write a spiritual autobiography like that Laura did (and Karen Armstrong and Augustine). You're a good writer. You went through a lot of changes. It would be interesting.
I'd write one myself except that I have no spiritual history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 01-15-2006 9:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 4:16 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 230 of 295 (279521)
01-16-2006 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by robinrohan
01-16-2006 3:55 PM


Re: Faith
So I get an "A" teach? Thanks. One thing I've discovered is that it's hard for me to write anything unless I'm goaded, such as in a debate or dialogue -- answering something. I also sometimes hear other people's stories and think I should ghost-write them because I know they won't, but I never get that done either.
I'd write one myself except that I have no spiritual history.
Well, but you do have a history, and you have an ear for character. If not autobiography then a novel -- or play -- could come out of that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-16-2006 07:12 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by robinrohan, posted 01-16-2006 3:55 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by robinrohan, posted 01-16-2006 7:28 PM Faith has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 231 of 295 (279527)
01-16-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Faith
01-15-2006 5:58 PM


Faith & Robin
Hello Faith, Robin,
Sorry for breaking into your conversation, but since my name was mentioned I think I am a little entitled to make a brief comment.
Faith writes:
Even if it were true that mind is a product of the brain, in itself it is incorporeal just as the words I'm writing are incorporeal in themselves. The meaning or thought that passes from me to you and you to me is incorporeal.
Where in the chain from the neural pathways in your brain and nervous system, via the muscle actions in your underarms to move your fingers on the keyboard, and the electronic connections in your computer, the internet, and my computer, and the light emitted by my screen, falling on my retina, going to my brain to form neural pathways that correspond to yours, where in that chain can one speak of something incorporeal? That's what I'd like to know.
By the way, this IS a great debate, by two fine writers, no matter what the thread title says. Thank you both. I'll leave you to it now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Faith, posted 01-15-2006 5:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 7:16 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 236 by robinrohan, posted 01-17-2006 10:38 AM Parasomnium has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 232 of 295 (279549)
01-16-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Parasomnium
01-16-2006 4:44 PM


Re: Faith & Robin
where in that chain can one speak of something incorporeal?
Quick answer: It isn't a "where."
The "something incorporeal" exists despite all those physical actions you describe. {abe: They are merely the physical vehicles that move it along).
If we were talking face to face, which would pare down those actions basically to brain activity and mouth muscles, it would be the same situation. The thought itself is incorporeal. But you aren't convinced?
Thank you for the compliment.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-16-2006 07:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Parasomnium, posted 01-16-2006 4:44 PM Parasomnium has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 295 (279550)
01-16-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
01-16-2006 4:16 PM


So that's it!
One thing I've discovered is that it's hard for me to write anything unless I'm goaded, such as in a debate or dialogue
So that's why you've been sluggish in this so-called "debate." I haven't goaded you and berated you and insulted you enough!
That's it.
You crazy old Calvinist Baptist woman. You are a real trip. I've never talked to someone as crazy as your sorry ass.
Psychics are demonic? Electric storms are evidence of the Universal Mind? Where do you get these goofy ideas?
And don't call me "teach"!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 4:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 11:33 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 234 of 295 (279581)
01-16-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by robinrohan
01-16-2006 7:28 PM


Re: So that's it!
I really don't know when you are joking.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-17-2006 02:32 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by robinrohan, posted 01-16-2006 7:28 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 01-17-2006 10:32 AM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 295 (279646)
01-17-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
01-16-2006 11:33 PM


Re: So that's it!
I really don't know when you are joking.
Sorry. I was joking. (bad joke).
ABE: However, I was serious about the spiritual autobiography. You should try it.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-17-2006 09:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 01-16-2006 11:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 01-17-2006 10:57 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 295 (279648)
01-17-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Parasomnium
01-16-2006 4:44 PM


Parasomnium
Sorry for breaking into your conversation, but since my name was mentioned
I thought it funny, my grouping you with Augustine, of all people. I can't imagine two people more dissimilar. Ha!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Parasomnium, posted 01-16-2006 4:44 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Parasomnium, posted 01-17-2006 10:51 AM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 295 (279651)
01-17-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
01-15-2006 4:43 PM


Re: Foolishness and Immorality
But you've been told by many that the only way to avoid an eternity of misery is to give yourself to Jesus Christ. Refusing that is a different kind of foolishness. It's not based on bad judgment or lack of knowledge. You have the knowledge, you've been told, the people who have told you have your best interests at heart.
I have a problem with this. I consider the view of the average person--say, me--to be similar to the man who took the wrong job by mistake. Yes, I have been "told," but I have also been told many other things that suggest the exact opposite. I've been told that we evolved, for example. Who to believe? In other words, my foolishness, if such it is, is an innocent mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 01-15-2006 4:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 01-17-2006 4:39 PM robinrohan has replied

Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 238 of 295 (279652)
01-17-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by robinrohan
01-17-2006 10:38 AM


Re: Parasomnium
robinrohan writes:
I can't imagine two people more dissimilar. Ha!
The most striking dissimilarity being of course that he's dead and I'm alive. "Ha!" indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by robinrohan, posted 01-17-2006 10:38 AM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 239 of 295 (279653)
01-17-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by robinrohan
01-17-2006 10:32 AM


Re: So that's it!
I know you intend to be joking, but sometimes joking is right on the edge of serious. If you kid me about being "too analytical" I'm sure it's friendly and it's SO nice to have someone recognize that experience. But if it's about my beliefs I'm not so sure. You don't share them after all. Most people DO think they're crazy. I guess as some have said, I'm hypersensitive. Sorry back.
Anyway, it's another day when I won't be around much. Eventually I should be able to give more thought to what you've written though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 01-17-2006 10:32 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by robinrohan, posted 01-17-2006 11:13 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 295 (279658)
01-17-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
01-17-2006 10:57 AM


Re: So that's it!
I know you intend to be joking, but sometimes joking is right on the edge of serious. If you kid me about being "too analytical" I'm sure it's friendly and it's SO nice to have someone recognize that experience. But if it's about my beliefs I'm not so sure. You don't share them after all
I appreciate the distinction you are making about the difference betweeen a joke about one's personality or experiences and a joke about one's serious beliefs not shared by the joker.
I'll try to be more sensitive to that issue. Actually, the joke, such as it was, was supposed to be about your debating style and your "fiery temperament" when "goaded"--which I enjoy, as I mentioned in the past, I think.
Just keep in mind that I do not (and never did) have any intention of insulting you or your beliefs. On the contrary.
Sometimes my comments are too spontaneous (and flippant).
ABE: added "and flippant."
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-17-2006 10:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 01-17-2006 10:57 AM Faith has not replied

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