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Author Topic:   God is good and evil
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 114 (94016)
03-23-2004 1:28 AM


Back on main topic now
I posted points in message 7 stating that though God might've indirectly created evil, He is not evil Himself. I also asserted that despite this, God is just as omnicent, omnipotent, and omni whatever else. That was the original arguement that myself, Mike the Whiz, and Stephen all contributed to.
A sub debate just took place but so far nobody's argued the main point further. Anybody care to chip in?

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 114 (94027)
03-23-2004 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by One_Charred_Wing
03-23-2004 1:21 AM


Really. To my understanding you were talking about evil in general, with murder as an example.
Yes. But the fact that shin-kicking doesn't drastically reduce choice has nothing to do with the fact that true evil does reduce choice.
And remember, shin-kicking does eliminate one choice for the victim - the choice to not be kicked in the shins.
ALTHOUGH all of these COULD have been done without the shin kicking, it'd be silly for me to ask someone why they kicked me in the shin when they haven't done so.
Nonetheless, they're still choices. And the kicker has taken away one crucial choice from the kickee - the choice to not be kicked in the shins.
By letting them go to school unsupervised by the parents, they are put in harm's way.
Nonesense. School administrators and teachers exist in part to ensure minimal risk to children, by supervision.
Now, of course, parents, being only human, recognize that there's a limit where their imperfect efforts to shield their child from harm actually do more harm than good. But it is the principle desire of parents to shield their child from as much harm as possible.
But a perfect, all-powerful, benevolent God doesn't have that limit. He's perfectly able to shield someone from harm without harming them in the process. Unless you think there's something God can't do?
If you'd like to convince them otherwise this is the right place to do it, but just like everyone here you'll need 'evidence to support this claim'.
Well, not exactly - I'm not making a positive claim. I'm simply observing that all evidence presented for the claim "God exists" has been, so far, insufficient. In the face of the lack of evidence for God, disbelief in God is the only rational conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-23-2004 1:21 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-23-2004 7:10 PM crashfrog has replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 114 (94035)
03-23-2004 3:05 AM


Good and evil are governed by motive and intent, which is entirely subjective to the person performing the act...
To say God is good and/or evil is to presume to know the mind of God and apart from a few loose units around there's not many who would make such a claim, suffice to say
GOD IS...
...and leave it at that for if God wasn't then you wouldn't be and we wouldn't even be posting this
or you could qualify it by saying...
GOD IS <<(enter personal opinion here)>>
determine your own truth
define your own reality
as you were...

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-30-2004 1:28 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 19 of 114 (94231)
03-23-2004 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
03-23-2004 2:13 AM


"Yes. But the fact that shin-kicking doesn't drastically reduce choice has nothing to do with the fact that true evil does reduce choice."
shin-kicking is obviously a minor evil compared to murder and rape. However minor it may be, evil is still evil. If it's not 'true' evil, then what kind of evil is it? Not evil? Hopefully we agree that shin-kicking is not a good thing.
"And remember, shin-kicking does eliminate one choice for the victim - the choice to not be kicked in the shins."
But to take away evil actions you would not have the option to kick them in the shin, punch them in the nose, or knee them in the groin.
There are countless good things you can do at any given moment in time and space; there are probably about as many evils you can do at the very same moment and place.
If we agree on this, to take away all those evil actions would eliminate more choices than to allow evil. Sure, most of them will impend choices, but you must choose to impend another's choice, and which way to do it. Lots of possible decisions.
"Nonetheless, they're still choices. And the kicker has taken away one crucial choice from the kickee - the choice to not be kicked in the shins."
We're granted that choice every second we're not being kicked in the shins, it takes away that choice once. However, it created the choice TO be kicked in the shins even if that choice is not desirable. We don't get to be kicked when we're by ourselves unless we do it (which, if commited, would prove that it is in fact a choice), and
some people wouldn't do that if you ask them.
That one choice taken away will not remove future choices, and for God to disallow such minor acts of evil completely would remove a lot more choices over a larger span of time than what's being taken away by stupid acts like that. It wouldn't completely remove free will to disallow evil acts, but it would greatly reduce it.
"Nonesense. School administrators and teachers exist in part to ensure minimal risk to children, by supervision."
What schools are we talking about?!
What teachers and administators are supposed to do and what they really do are completely different things in my experience. They haven't ensured anything; I would not have gotten jumped in 3rd Grade if this were so. Administrators at my high school look the other way when our top athletes are using steroids and even picking on people much weaker than they are. School is a dangerous place, and everyone I know well has gotten into at least one major fight on campus, with no adult intervention until at least a few minutes after it started, if at all. I could go on about how messed up our schools are, but that's the point I needed to make about ONE of its dangers.
"But a perfect, all-powerful, benevolent God doesn't have that limit. He's perfectly able to shield someone from harm without harming them in the process. Unless you think there's something God can't do?"
An allknowing being would know that a baby will never learn to walk if they never leave the cradle, and you have to get colds etc. at a young age or your immune system will never develop properly.
Even the wilderness without people is dangerous, but it's good. Danger isn't always evil, and evil isn't always dangerous. But please don't think I'm saying someone hurting someone else isn't evil, I mean natural dangers when I say dangers without evil.
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-23-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 03-23-2004 2:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2004 2:30 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 114 (94340)
03-24-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by One_Charred_Wing
03-23-2004 7:10 PM


But to take away evil actions you would not have the option to kick them in the shin, punch them in the nose, or knee them in the groin.
*Sigh*
Yes, we covered this. Remember my point isn't that restricting evil doesn't decrease choice. My point is that allowing evil reduces more choices in total than restricting it would. Namely, you lose all the choices the victims would have had.
Now, why does a few choices of evildoers outwiegh the greater amount of choices of victims? If God wanted to maximize choice, he'd prevent murder, at least.
What schools are we talking about?!
Oh, you know, the ones with the metal detectors, the ones with school nurses, the ones that weren't built on top of toxic waste dumps, the ones with crossing guards - the ones with an infrastructure designed to maximize child safety within human limits.
I didn't say they were perfect. But that's not to say they don't try at all.
An allknowing being would know that a baby will never learn to walk if they never leave the cradle, and you have to get colds etc. at a young age or your immune system will never develop properly.
Who needs to learn to walk when God can just make you walk? Who needs an immune system in a world without colds?
The point is, God could be taking a lot better care of us, especially if he actually exists. I mean, how much choice did the Holocaust bring into the world? How did the September 11th hijackers maximize choice in the world, especially for those 3,000 people? "Free will" and "choice" are just cop-outs for people who don't want to face the truth that if God exists, he's the ultimate deadbeat dad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-23-2004 7:10 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-25-2004 11:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Catalyst
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 114 (94814)
03-25-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
03-01-2004 8:54 PM


Re: apple and ball
Again I repeat myself I am not confusing everything with everywhere, I did not say that we are all sinful because we have evil thoughts, I was rebutting your argument, showing you how the things you say don’t make sense logically and according to the bible!
When you say that it was Satan who chose to have evil thoughts against god, God allowed it to continue and happen in the first place, therefore, logically it served some purpose to God. Otherwise why would He have allowed it to continue and keep happening?
Can you read? When I was talking about the Van Gogh and his paintings I said I wasn’t talking in a literal physical way but in a way that a part of his being was in that painting, he created it, it was part of him and he was part of it. If you have to think of it this way, that painting is still him, it resembles him and what he stood for in other peoples minds as well as his when he was alive. Do you understand or do I have to repeat myself again — not literally physical!!!
With your analogy of the apple and the ball, how can you confine God like that, in my opinion your analogy fall extremely short of God — who has no constraints! Why are you putting restraints on God and his power?
I am saying that God is everywhere — all time (relatively) / no time (absolutely), his love touches all, all is part of him.
How can God be so vengeful in the Old Testament and so loving in the New Testament? He condemns his own creations as being evil when he had the power to absolve them of this infliction? Why is god shown to be so condemning of gay people, of women and their place etc and condone things like the bad treatment of slaves?
Answer is god has to be both evil and good! We were created in his image, we are both evil and good, and therefore he has to be evil and good! Refer to my Adam and Eve reference; they had already been given the knowledge of good and evil so how could they be punished for something they already had?
If you are looking for a bible passage for the bad treatment of slaves try:
1Peter 2:18-20
Sorry for the late reply I have just started university so I have a lot of work to do

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2004 8:54 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by mike the wiz, posted 04-17-2004 12:32 PM Catalyst has replied

  
Catalyst
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 114 (94815)
03-25-2004 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-02-2004 1:12 AM


You know its funny ur trying to threaten me with Gods vengence using bible passages, i advise you refer to:
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Good try though

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-02-2004 1:12 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-29-2004 11:47 PM Catalyst has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 23 of 114 (94873)
03-25-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
03-24-2004 2:30 AM


"Remember my point isn't that restricting evil doesn't decrease choice. My point is that allowing evil reduces more choices in total than restricting it would."
I humbly disagree with that point. I think I meantioned this before:There are countless things anyone can do at any given moment that are good, and about as many thigns one can do that are evil. If you take the bad away, you reduce it (amount of choices at any given moment, ie freewill) by anywhere from 30%-55% on estimate.
"Now, why does a few choices of evildoers outwiegh the greater amount of choices of victims? If God wanted to maximize choice, he'd prevent murder, at least."
I'm sorry, but there's more than a few evil things I could do just sitting at this computer; I could type countless possible insults etc. into this text box right now. There's lots of ways to murder people as well.
Also, about that ending choices. Keep in mind that lots of murders involve a struggle. You cannot choose to physically struggle against a murder that is not happening to you. That creates a choice, even if only for a limited time. Are the choices for the other ended? Maybe, depending on your belief in afterlife, it does but there's so many evil things one could do at any moment, to take them away would reduce free will by a much higher percentage than to leave it as it is, with us able to do as we decide.
Again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING EVIL. I'm simply asserting that for absolute freewill at any given moment we can't be restricted from evil. We ate the fruit, we have the knowledge, we can do good or evil with it.
Also, although you and I agree that evil can be to a certain extent defined from good, many others would argue that good and evil are simply perceptions; if that were the case then all actions are just actions and to remove any of them from our possibilities would take a lot of free will away.
"Who needs to learn to walk when God can just make you walk? Who needs an immune system in a world without colds?"
We don't live in a world without colds, do we? Whether or not the evils of this world were started way back in the Garden of Eden or not is irrelevant to the arguement; the point is that it's here. It exists. Then you ask, 'why doesn't God just wipe it all away?'
I could come up with a bunch of answers from a theistic perspective, but I think I'll explain it on common ground that we would both agree is legitimate.
I've said it before, the world with or without humans is a dangerous place, and that's good. We all have that need for adventure even when we grow up, and with adventure there's the unknown, with the unknown there is risk, with risk there is, as it implies, a high possibility of danger.
Do you want to live in a world with NO danger? Would you really want somebody else to wipe everything away and make it better? Hell no, where's the danger in that?
I'm assuming we both agree that humans created these human problems.
We brought this terrible worldwide turmoil on ourselves. Keep that in mind during the next paragraph or so.
" "Free will" and "choice" are just cop-outs for people who don't want to face the truth that if God exists, he's the ultimate deadbeat dad. "
So I guess my own dad was a dead beat dad too, huh? Your daddy can't fix all your problems for you! Most of us at 4-6 years old come home telling dad about the big bullies that beat us up, yes? Did he go out there and kick the crap out of the kids? Hopefully not, for most of us he tells us to go out there and stick up for ourselves and fight the biggest bully there face to face. An overwhelming number of us win. Those who don't get tougher just like those who do.
It's not deadbeat to tell your kids to handle their own problems. I have a feeling you're going to say 'God can make a perfect world where we don't NEED to mature and stand up for ourselves!' so I'll answer that right now.
Are you proud of how much you've grown, changed and matured since you were 5? You never would've done that in a perfect world, there would be no need for maturity or inner strength. You don't get stronger unless you lift weights and exercise, right? No pain, no gain! Even with steroids you have to lift a little, but we all know that the easy road always has nasty side effects...
That was a lot longer than I planned it to be. sorry!
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-26-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 03-24-2004 2:30 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2004 1:51 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 114 (94973)
03-26-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by One_Charred_Wing
03-25-2004 11:52 PM


f you take the bad away, you reduce it (amount of choices at any given moment, ie freewill) by anywhere from 30%-55% on estimate.
This made me laugh. Thank you. I love made-up figures.
Maybe, depending on your belief in afterlife
Actually depending on your belief, too - can you do evil in Heaven? If not, people in heaven don't have free will, according to your argument.
Also, although you and I agree that evil can be to a certain extent defined from good, many others would argue that good and evil are simply perceptions; if that were the case then all actions are just actions and to remove any of them from our possibilities would take a lot of free will away.
Perhaps true.
Consider this, though - don't you think an all-powerful God could preserve the choice of evil without allowing the consequence of evil? You can choose to pull the trigger, but does the gun have to fire? Your choice is already made so how could a convinient misfire rob you of choice?
We don't live in a world without colds, do we?
We would in a world without evil and suffering. I would have thought that was obvious, frankly.
Do you want to live in a world with NO danger? Would you really want somebody else to wipe everything away and make it better?
Personally, no. But don't you think a benevolent, concerned God would give us the choice?
Ever play a game like Everquest? There's areas where you can come to harm, and areas where you are safe from harm, like towns. If video game designers can balance the need for adventure and testing (which I agree is important), you're telling me God can't?
I'm assuming we both agree that humans created these human problems.
But we both agree that God could take them away any time he pleased, which in my book, makes him responsible.
Your daddy can't fix all your problems for you!
No. But he never said he could. He never claimed to have infinite wisdom and surpassing power. Moreover, nobody else claimed that he had those things, and nobody tried to tell me that it would all be easier if I just opened my heart and let my all-powerful, all-knowing Dad in. And nobody ever insinutated that I was an evil, hell-bound sinner for not holding the same belief about dad as them.
The point is, the stakes are higher for God, because more is claimed about God than my dad. And because so much more is claimed, God falls all the farther short.
All I'm arguing is that God doesn't live up to what is claimed about him (not the least of which is his failure to actually exist. ) All you seem to be arguing is that I have no right to point that out, and moreover, neither of us want God to live up to his claims. Weird argument, if you ask me.
You never would've done that in a perfect world, there would be no need for maturity or inner strength.
God can do anything, right? You're telling me that he couldn't make humans that had that strength automatically?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-25-2004 11:52 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-27-2004 12:35 AM crashfrog has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 25 of 114 (95055)
03-27-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
03-26-2004 1:51 PM


Interesting points, but I hate Everquest!!!!
"This made me laugh. Thank you. I love made-up figures."
No worries, I didn't claim it was added up somewhere, I just took an about estimate.
"Actually depending on your belief, too - can you do evil in Heaven? If not, people in heaven don't have free will, according to your argument."
That raises an interesting point, before I *attempt* to answer that please note that I do not claim to know anything about heaven so this is a hypothetical arguement.
Can you do evil in heaven? Lucifer B. Satan did it. Then he got kicked out. I don't think that happens very often now if at all; I would suppose when you get to heaven you become more enlightened, so even though you can do evil you know enough to deem it unneccesary.
"don't you think an all-powerful God could preserve the choice of evil without allowing the consequence of evil? You can choose to pull the trigger, but does the gun have to fire? Your choice is already made so how could a convinient misfire rob you of choice?"
This, in turn, made me laugh. So when you stab somebody the blade's supposed to bend? When I kick someone in the shin does my shoe split at the toe? When I try to make fun of that question do my fingerz aoipenpoj wepojnmrpoernmrptop,mge
I think you get the idea. Yes, an omnipotent God COULD do that, but then we'd live in a rubber world with no danger.
"Personally, no. But don't you think a benevolent, concerned God would give us the choice?"
He did back at the Garden of Eden, according to most Christian Theists. I assume we're keeping it hypothetical that He exists, so I'll stand with that.
"Ever play a game like Everquest? There's areas where you can come to harm, and areas where you are safe from harm, like towns. If video game designers can balance the need for adventure and testing (which I agree is important), you're telling me God can't?"
I HATE EVERQUEST AND ALL OTHER MMOs!!!
For mentioning that you just lost 5 intergity points and went down a respect level. I've got a friend that plays that(luckily not as often as he used to )
I could go on to make fun of that but instead I'll get back on topic while holding on to the analogy.
One thing about MMOs that I assume gets people to like them is the fact that much of it is player made. You get to decide what you want to do, but your choices can also effect other people for better or for worse. We do that too, people who live in constant danger are living in products of someone else's cruelty, which was their free will to create.
"But we both agree that God could take them away any time he pleased, which in my book, makes him responsible."
Again, my dad could've beat those kids down when I was little, but instead he had me stick up for myself like God makes us do. I don't pretend to know how God works, but this is what I've gathered from my life's experiences.
"No. But he never said he could. "
The typical dad can beat up 4 six year olds.
"He never claimed to have infinite wisdom and surpassing power. "
You don't need to be omnipotent to beat up four little kids! I have LOTS of little cousins, I know this for a fact!
"Moreover, nobody else claimed that he had those things, and nobody tried to tell me that it would all be easier if I just opened my heart and let my all-powerful, all-knowing Dad in."
I disagree with anyone who ever says Christianity will make your life easier. Including any scripture in the Bible. Certain things may happen for the better because of it, but overall it's much harder to live as a Christian.
"And nobody ever insinutated that I was an evil, hell-bound sinner for not holding the same belief about dad as them."
Even if they did, was it dad's fault that they said that?
"All I'm arguing is that God doesn't live up to what is claimed about him"
I thought it was whether or not evil takes away more choices than it brings, but I guess the arguement is just going with the flow.
"(not the least of which is his failure to actually exist. ) All you seem to be arguing is that I have no right to point that out,"
You have every right to because it's part of your free will, it's just that I have every right to say you're wrong.
"and moreover, neither of us want God to live up to his claims."
Depends on which claims. Lots is claimed about God, I'd hate to think he'd live up to the claim of being dead.
"Weird argument, if you ask me."
Yes, but Everquest is weirder. I hate Everquest.
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-27-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 03-26-2004 1:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 03-27-2004 1:05 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 114 (95065)
03-27-2004 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by One_Charred_Wing
03-27-2004 12:35 AM


Yes, an omnipotent God COULD do that, but then we'd live in a rubber world with no danger.
That was rather the point.
He did back at the Garden of Eden, according to most Christian Theists. I assume we're keeping it hypothetical that He exists, so I'll stand with that.
What, a week-old guy with the mind of a child and his equally ignorant wife get to make the decision for every human being afterwards? How is that fair? When did I get to choose?
For mentioning that you just lost 5 intergity points and went down a respect level.
Do you think you could maybe keep your issues to yourself and just answer the questions? Thanks. I never said I played Everquest, you know.
Again, my dad could've beat those kids down when I was little, but instead he had me stick up for myself like God makes us do.
Yeah, great for you, but we're not just talking about bullies on the playground. We're talking about the full spectrum of human evil - rape, murder, torture. You're telling me that if you were being raped and murdered by a stranger your dad's response would be "suck it up, son, it'll build character?" There's a line where having someone learn ot stand on their own two feet turns into reprehensible abandonment. Exactly what life lesson am I supposed to learn when God lets me get murdered?
I thought it was whether or not evil takes away more choices than it brings, but I guess the arguement is just going with the flow.
Right, but the only reason we're arguing that point is because you raised it to counter my claim that God is an abusive parent. Remember?
I hate Everquest.
Never played it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-27-2004 12:35 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-29-2004 11:29 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 114 (95794)
03-29-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by crashfrog
03-27-2004 1:05 AM


Back in Black
Apologies to Crashfrog for taking time to reply. I had some stuff to do up until late yesterday, and my brain was too tired to argue so I put it off till now. Anyways...
A few posts ago I mentioned something about the necessity for some danger in this world, and how it can be a good thing. From my understanding you agreed, because you made the analogy of the balance between safety and danger and how a good balance is necessary in reality. Then this:
I say:
Yes, an omnipotent God COULD do that, but then we'd live in a rubber world with no danger.
You reply:
That was rather the point.
You can't balance between a thing that exists and a thing that does not. Please make it clear whether or not you feel danger and exiliration are an important part of a good life.
"What, a week-old guy with the mind of a child and his equally ignorant wife get to make the decision for every human being afterwards? How is that fair? When did I get to choose?"
Aha, the original sin according to Judeo-Christian theology. Screwing over the rest of humankind for the rest of the earth's life(maybe longer) is a great irreversable evil, yes? Probably one of the greatest ever? Guess what?
because of this original sin we were introduced into a world of choices and knowledge: construction, mathematics, science, martial arts, all means of survival somebody had to choose to create, or to learn, or to destroy (i.e. blow up a building somebody constructed).
This original sin sparked choices and necesities for choices we NEVER would've had to make back in the old garden. Now hopefully that clarifies my point that evil can in fact create choices even in its greater manifestations.
But you asked about fairness; evil is not fair. That snake played their ignorance and screwed us all over. When do you get to choose?
Everyone alive now has the choice to make the world better, be it through charity, church, or whatever. All of us can do good or evil at any time. If we all did what was right all the time (it'll never happen in our lifetimes) then we'd basically have the Garden of Eden.
We could, theoretically 'choose' our way back into a happy garden of harmony. But we don't. I'm not sayin' it would be easy; the choices our ancestors have made in the past however many millenia make establishing peace pretty difficult anywhere nowadays.
"Do you think you could maybe keep your issues to yourself and just answer the questions? Thanks. I never said I played Everquest, you know."
Lighten up, I was joking. I took your repeated 'God doesn't exist' statements with good humor, could you take my anti-game slogans with equal tolerance, please?
(especially since I worship God and you don't worship computer games)
"...We're talking about the full spectrum of human evil - rape, murder, torture. You're telling me that if you were being raped and murdered by a stranger your dad's response would be "suck it up, son, it'll build character?" There's a line where having someone learn ot stand on their own two feet turns into reprehensible abandonment. Exactly what life lesson am I supposed to learn when God lets me get murdered?"
If it is hypothetically granted that God exists then you'd go to heaven if you were murdered. Rape and torture are terrible things, agreed, but they are choices. And while it is by no means fair for the victim, for free will to be free, God can't stop somebody in the middle of their act. There is almost always social and psychological reprecussion to punish the rapist, and the raped almost always makes a full recovery. I've heard of people who came to be because their mother was raped, but became a treasured member of the family nontheless.
I understand your point, though. This is what I understand but sometimes I wonder if free will is worth the worst case scenarios that are happening somewhere every second or so? Either way, we have it and this is my understanding as to why.
[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-29-2004]

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 03-27-2004 1:05 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-29-2004 11:39 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 28 of 114 (95799)
03-29-2004 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing
03-29-2004 11:29 PM


Re: Back in Black
Besides....anti-EQ rhetoric just might get ME angry.
<---------
/sigh no it won't, haven't played in almost a year.
MUST.....STAY.....AWAY.....

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-29-2004 11:29 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 03-29-2004 11:47 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 114 (95800)
03-29-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Catalyst
03-25-2004 8:10 PM


Catalyst,
Thanks for the encouragement. It was a good try. After the marriage of the Lamb, God does remind us that, indeed, He is omnipotent. If you have ever been married, you want to know such things. Until marriage, however, it is better to remember that He is a father, counselor, shepherd, etc.
But, I should have known better than to use the word "never." Thanks for the correction.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Catalyst, posted 03-25-2004 8:10 PM Catalyst has not replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 114 (95801)
03-29-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AdminAsgara
03-29-2004 11:39 PM


Re: Back in Black
Sorry, I'd better keep in mind that a Moderator used to play it or I might suffer the wrath

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-29-2004 11:39 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

  
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