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Author Topic:   Can the Christian God exist without the Bible?
jar
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Posts: 29138
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 46 of 106 (248311)
10-02-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Legend
10-02-2005 6:41 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
I think GOD does. But can mankind understand?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat
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Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 47 of 106 (667542)
07-09-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
09-21-2005 8:49 AM


Human Stories and Hopes and Beliefs
jar writes:

GOD, the creator, exists or does not exist. The Christian God, or any God, can never be more than some minor reflection of GOD. Religion is no more than a creation of man and can never equal the actuality.

Yes, I realize that this is true. When I started this topic in 2005, I was more literal and churchified than I am today. The question is more of a "what if" question to be discussed philosophically than it is an assertion of a particular belief or ideology.

Larni writes:

The Bible is a record that has been kept and is used a a source of information. At a basic level humans transmit ideas through time by storing them in some physical medium (books, cds, brains etc). The Bible is just a medium of storage. Remove it from history and you still would have belief in gods or a god. All cultures have myths. If you totally remove the myths of any god, no one will have any knowledge of that god.

By definition, any human description will be assigned to the myth/mythos category. Humans may argue, however, that they have actually experienced or met God, so there will be arguments. The bottom line is that nobody can prove these encounters, though some may argue that radically changed lives and personalities would seem to indicate an agent of change.

Brian writes:

God can exist regardless of the Bible.

What you cannot do is use the Bible to 'prove' that there is a God.

purpledawn writes:

Since the absolute creator existed for humans before the Bible and in places where the Bible did/does not exist, then I would say yes the idea of an absolute creator would still exist.

Some people see the need for a Creator to be lacking. They point out that we can theorize the origins and behaviors of the known universe quite well without need of a Creator. Others would claim that, in a sense, humans themselves are creators of descriptive reality and are quite arrogant in so being...seeing as how we are such a minute speck of known intelligence in such a vast universe. Why not a Creator? Thus the philosophical wars commence. Some think that its simply right that we should determine our own place in reality as we measure it, and that there is no evidence for God. My only observatin is that those who want there to be a God usually are more likely to become believers, whereas those who have disdain for such a description don't even like speculating of Gods possible existance.

jar writes:

Did Luke read the Bible? Or Paul? Or Mark? Or Joseph of Arimathea? Or John of Patmos? Or Constantine?

No, there was no Bible...we have discussed this before. There were ideas orally discussed, and there were philosophies and beliefs. SAurely something caused Constantine to convert...legend says it was a dream. Paul certainly got knocked off his high horse as Saul, and became as zealous for his new belief as he was for his old belief.

My question: Was an external source, author, and/or power responsible for these changes or was it all in their own minds?

jar writes:

Unless one is careful the Bible says "This is all there is; thus ends God's communication with man."

Exactly! This is why I prefer philosophy over dogmatic theology. IF God exists, She surely can communicate with every individual internally. The only problem is how we would know that our epiphanies were of such great meaning so as to cause us to try and convert others.

2005 Phat writes:

if God exists outside of the Bible, surely He would or could impart a common vision and set of inner morals to a group of people,no?

I might ask GOD directly IF He wishes to even communicate with us or whether He expects us to handle things on our own, as it is more logical.


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Phat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 48 of 106 (667552)
07-09-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Legend
10-02-2005 6:41 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
Legend writes:

but can't an omnipotent GOD communicate with us in a clear and unambiguous manner ?

If I can write a document that communicates something in a clear and concise manner why can't She ?

If humanity could arrive at a consensus as to who and what GOD is, need it be in any way accurate as to the actuality?

As far as communication goes, I would like to believe (and thus DO believe) that GOD is capable of communication, even through the wisdom of others.


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Phat
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Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 106 (667645)
07-10-2012 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
10-02-2005 6:47 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
jar writes:

but can mankind understand?

In another topic, you mention the following:

quote:
Faith, grace, mercy, love can only be obtained through mental effort; they are things an individual works at and the result of evolution, teaching and personal experience; of a growth in wisdom.

Does this mean, in your opinion, that God gives us nothing? The Bible(compilation of books of NIV) says that God gives us grace.We may well not understand GOD, and can only imagine the God we believe in, but many of us believe that He gives us grace. (also mercy, in my opinion.)

I can cite a few scriptures, but trust that you have read the Bible.


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jar
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Posts: 29138
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 50 of 106 (667646)
07-10-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
07-10-2012 6:25 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
Grace and Mercy are things you learn to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Phat
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Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 51 of 106 (667648)
07-10-2012 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
07-10-2012 6:31 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
so are you implying that GOD is in no way (possibly) interactive with humanity? As i said earlier, Surely something caused Constantine to convert...legend says it was a dream. Paul certainly got knocked off his high horse as Saul, and became as zealous for his new belief as he was for his old belief.

It was a lot more than just building a franchise. These men were not simply interested in making money...there was and is more to life than that. Perhaps it is we who become the decisions we make and the actions we take, but to say that God is not in communion with humanity is radical.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29138
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 52 of 106 (667650)
07-10-2012 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
07-10-2012 7:22 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
People have visions and make radical changes in their lives for many reasons. People also change their loyalties.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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caffeine
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Posts: 1313
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 53 of 106 (667683)
07-11-2012 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
07-10-2012 7:22 PM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
Surely something caused Constantine to convert...legend says it was a dream.

Surely something caused Julian, Constatine's nephew, to convert to paganism after a Christian upbringing, but the voice of God seems niether necessary nor likely.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 54 of 106 (667692)
07-11-2012 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by caffeine
07-11-2012 7:58 AM


God exists or He does not
We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know. I could just as easily state that God is quite likely, but I would be no closer to the truth than you are.

This topic assumes Gods existence, anyway....which is why it is in Faith & Belief.

The likelihood is at worst 50/50


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Panda
Member (Idle past 1181 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 55 of 106 (667710)
07-11-2012 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-11-2012 11:46 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
Phat writes:

The likelihood is at worst 50/50


Yup.
And the chance of me winning the lottery is 50/50 - I either win or I don't.

CRYSTALS!!

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ringo
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Posts: 13314
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 56 of 106 (667712)
07-11-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-11-2012 11:46 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
Phat writes:

We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know. I could just as easily state that God is quite likely, but I would be no closer to the truth than you are.


Likelihood usually branches out from what we do know. A unicorn is less likely than a horse. A magic unicorn is even less likely.

A god is also less likely than a horse. A specific god, like the Christian God, is less likely than an unspecified god.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 57 of 106 (667762)
07-12-2012 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
07-11-2012 1:11 PM


Re: God exists or He does not
since when does probability determine a Deity? Why can't it just be I AM that I AM?
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caffeine
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Posts: 1313
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 58 of 106 (667770)
07-12-2012 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-11-2012 11:46 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
God exists or He does not
We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know.

I was dicussing the likelihood that Julian's conversion to Paganism was due to the divine influence of Jupiter, not the likelihood of God's existence. My point was simply that you cannot use the conversion of Constantine as evidence for the existence of a deity, since there are also cases of conversion the other way, so conversion does not require any truth behind the religion.

This topic assumes Gods existence, anyway

The topic is 'Can the Christian God exist without the Bible'. If we're asusming God's existence for the sake of the topic then a simple 'yes' in the first post would have been sufficient.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 59 of 106 (667773)
07-12-2012 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
07-11-2012 11:46 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
Phat writes:

We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know. I could just as easily state that God is quite likely, but I would be no closer to the truth than you are.
This topic assumes Gods existence, anyway....which is why it is in Faith & Belief.

The likelihood is at worst 50/50

The question is whether the Christian god could exist without the Bible.

Of course. He existed long before the "Christian" Biblical testament existed. He existed so as to create planet earth, as per the Genesis record.

For Biblical creationists, the order of our Universe, as observed could not have existed, void of the biblical god, Jehovah, the designer of it's complexity and eternal manager/worker who exists in the eternal cosmos/heavens of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


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jar
Member
Posts: 29138
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 60 of 106 (667786)
07-12-2012 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Buzsaw
07-12-2012 6:24 AM


Re: God exists or He does not
But the only support for the assertion that the Jewish God created the universe are the stories in the Bible.

If those stories did not exist then could that God exist?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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