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Author Topic:   Can the Christian God exist without the Bible?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 519 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 76 of 106 (672408)
09-07-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by vimesey
09-07-2012 5:44 PM


Re: You need to think about this a bit more.
But then, in the quotation from Hawkins' post, what are the "infallible reference" and the earthly authority, other than an attempt to appeal to evidence ?

True. Then I suppose I take issue with both conclusions insofar as they dela with faith/belief, but will in no way attempt to reach my own. Faith and belief isn't my Matt Forte, and any further comment will likely result in snark and banishment from moose or PD.

but I have a special difficulty with a faith which claims that other faiths are demonstrably incorrect, because the first faith's book is the best book.

Don't they all say/do that? Even Christian church A does it to Christian church B and random Christian A does it to random Christian B, so on and so forth.


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by vimesey, posted 09-07-2012 5:44 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by vimesey, posted 09-07-2012 6:03 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 77 of 106 (672411)
09-07-2012 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
09-07-2012 5:52 PM


Re: You need to think about this a bit more.
Don't they all say/do that? Even Christian church A does it to Christian church B and random Christian A does it to random Christian B, so on and so forth.

A lot of the time, definitely. I do take some comfort from fairly recent attempts at dialogue and co-operation between the Anglican church and the Muslim Council, but a lot of the time, you're absolutely right - there is a lot of cross-religion/cross-denominational conflict over differing views. And I retain a special difficulty with this, particularly when, at the heart of many of those religions/denominations' teachings are love, deference, tolerance and respect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 09-07-2012 5:52 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 78 of 106 (672450)
09-08-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 3:07 PM


Hawkins writes:

There are 2 kind of gods. One demands your faith, the other not. As for the gods who never demanded your faith, their existence has nothing to do with you.


You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.

Hawkins writes:

It happens that Christianity is such a religion....


It "happens" to fit the criteria because you reverse-engineered the criteria to fit it. If you honestly thought about what a God "should" do, you might come to a very different conclusion. You might even realize that a supposedly infallible source is a pretty bad idea.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 3:07 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 79 of 106 (673295)
09-18-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
09-08-2012 11:56 AM


You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.
===============================================

That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do. In a nutshell, He cares only about His sheep.

And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 09-08-2012 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Coragyps, posted 09-18-2012 2:25 PM Hawkins has not yet responded
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 2:28 PM Hawkins has responded
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:59 PM Hawkins has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5299
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 80 of 106 (673313)
09-18-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer...

As long as 1/3 or more of humans consider themselves sheep, we aren't going to make much progress, are we?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29779
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 81 of 106 (673314)
09-18-2012 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


unworthy gods.
If you believe in some God that cares only about His sheep then you believe in a God that is unworthy of my respect or worship and that quite frankly, one that as a Christian I must oppose.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 2:58 PM jar has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 82 of 106 (673319)
09-18-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
09-18-2012 2:28 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
If you believe in some God that cares only about His sheep then you believe in a God that is unworthy of my respect or worship and that quite frankly, one that as a Christian I must oppose.
======================================

If you like a Shepherd feeding His sheep to wolves, be my guest. "Sheep" is an analogy showing that a Shepherd can't love both the wolves and the sheep at the same time. Either He leave the wolves in poverty for the love of the sheep, or feed them with the sheep for the love of the wolves.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


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 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 2:28 PM jar has responded

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 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 3:03 PM Hawkins has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 83 of 106 (673320)
09-18-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


Hawkins writes:

That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do.


You're the one who said there are only two possible kinds of god. I'm just adding another assumption to yours.

Hawkins writes:

And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return.


What about the other 2/3? How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Hawkins has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 29779
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 84 of 106 (673321)
09-18-2012 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 2:58 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
Sorry but as a Christian I must point out to you that the god you are trying to market is just plain evil and unworthy of my respect but certainly worthy of my contempt.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 2:58 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:08 PM jar has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 85 of 106 (673322)
09-18-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
09-18-2012 2:59 PM


How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?
============================================

By analysis you can tell, from multiple perspective including what the nature of history is and how many gods understand this nature. Moreover, there's nothing 100% guaranteed that's why faith is needed.

Here, I already excluded personal experience which you never buy into.

Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question,

does afterlife exist?

It's reflection of your faith whether your answer is a yes or no.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 3:53 PM Hawkins has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 86 of 106 (673326)
09-18-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
09-18-2012 3:03 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
Sorry but as a Christian I must point out to you that the god you are trying to market is just plain evil and unworthy of my respect but certainly worthy of my contempt.

===========================

On the other hand, that usually is based on your own interpretation and mostly your own intelligence which you don't have the capability to doubt about.

This can be told even from your own wording,

"you are trying to market"

don't assume so! In the end, it's your own life which only you would care. If you don't no one will.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 3:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:33 PM Hawkins has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 87 of 106 (673342)
09-18-2012 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 3:04 PM


Hawkins writes:

Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question, does afterlife exist?


No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either. There might be a solution to the global warming problem or their might not be. I have no "belief" one way or the other. No faith is required.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:04 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 88 of 106 (673346)
09-18-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
09-18-2012 3:53 PM


No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either.
==================================

Let me make it more obvious for you.

Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth.

So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence?

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 3:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:19 PM Hawkins has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 89 of 106 (673355)
09-18-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:03 PM


Hawkins writes:

Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth.

So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence?


I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy. I certainly would NOT adopt a life-long belief that there was a bomb without some real evidence.

That's the same approach that I take with claims about God. Unless I have some evidence, how do I know which god is going to punish me for believing in the wrong god?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:03 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 190 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 90 of 106 (673358)
09-18-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
09-18-2012 4:19 PM


I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy.
================================================

The margin is how you evaluation "when the bomb will blast". You behave so because the truth can only come with the bomb blasted or not. You don't risk when there's a chance that "it is the moment that it will blasted".

So you decision "to leave" or "to stay" is made based on the blasting line. The analogy here is the question that what drives your decision at the moment that the bomb will blast anytime.

The two option is to leave by recognize its chance, or to stay as a belief that it's a hoax. Waiting for evidence is not an option because you have only one life to loose.

That's the point of the analogy. In reality the moment of the blast is the moment of your death. So before this "blasting line", "not believe" and "not disbelieve" doesn't seem to be an option, may be you've already made up your mind to disbelieve, instead of "not disbelieve".

Moreover, it doesn't make sense that at the moment right before one's death, he still in between belief and disbelief. Most likely he's already chosen to disbelieve, that's he doesn't need to worry. This is however a sub-conscious decision.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:42 PM Hawkins has responded

  
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