What did I Misunderstand, Zachariah?

That was alot to take in. One day there's just me and purpledawn going back and forth taken it easy then BAMMMMMM!!!!! Thousands of replies. I'm in the process of researching the OT for backing of the NT, so I'm going to just hit at a few things I read in pg's 1-2 of this forum.
Do you all have faith in any book you have ever read in school. ie. history books and the like. If so how do you know them to be true? The people that wrote the history books were there and it was passed down in many cases. The most important thing to realize is that they are more recent events and easier for us to check up on. The bible is the oldest book in circulation, thus alot of things that occured in those times don't make much since to us now, thus we have trouble believing. I have always heard the gospels as "the gospel according to _________" that gives it's ownership. You all have alot of trouble allowing yourselves to let go and except that.
My main question to you all would be; Do you know everything? If so good job, if not can you at the very least have the courage to say maybe this bible is true. What if it is true? Are you all so full yourself that you are willing to face the fire because of stuborness. Just face it....there is a possibility that GOD exists and Jesus is GOD the savior and the bible is true. There is a possibility that you "all knowing" people have made mistakes in your grand interpretation, thus you need to go back and check other resources. I'm not saying I know everything because I don't. I'm a christian of 19 years that has never finished reading the bible once. It bored me to death, but as of recent years I have come to realize my (and your) hebrew roots. I believe as the appostles and Christ did. That "jewish" customs ie certain feast and festivals are to be done by ALL people and the Sabbath is Saturday not the changed to Sunday sabbath. Since this new awareness I have begun to study the bible and have a new better understanding of what I read. I still don't know everything yet and never will, but I can say that to myself. Is there a possibility that GOD doesn't exist? In my mind, no. But if I were to say yes, and I was wrong, what is the worst that could happen? I've lived a good life, trying to do good things. I don't commit crimes. If I died nothing happens, I go knowhere, just bones in the dirt. If GOD does exist and I did like I am doing, then I'm in heaven with all the other believers. If HE exists and I do not believe, I go to Hell. So why not take the chance that HE is real. Take HIM at HIS word. What do YOU have to loose? IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU ALL COULD BE WRONG? -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-22-2004 06:41 PMThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-22-2004 06:45 PM

Oy, veh! What, dear fellow, if it's one of the other several hundred current or several thousand pasr dieties that's the one that really exists? Will you take that chance - that Allah, or Coyote, or Eris is The Real Thing?Sure, it's possible that I'm wrong. But I believe in only one less god than you do. My chances of "being wrong" change only immeasureably if I decide your particular version of your particular one is The Truth (TM).

Your self absorbed reality is getting you a cozy place by the fire. Good luck with your "god" whatever it is.

Hi, Zachariah. It is really nice to meet you, in an internet sort of way. I have honored your challenge, and remember, you wanted us to honestly approach your challenge to open-mindedly examine your fountain of belief. If some of us do not respond to the same call that you have submitted to, we are now to be accused of being all wrong? That, my friend, is disingenuous of you. If I had given you the same challenge, that is, to ask for unassuming perusal of "Sidelights on Relativity" by Albert Einstein, would you then be so accusatory if we slammed you for not accepting the premise of the book? This is a two way world, you cannot eat your cake and ours, too. Get over it, there will always be people that don't agree with you. We are not the Stepford wives, here. Challenge yourself, like you have challenged us. Or, would that be against God's rules?

Is this to be understood literally? Sense when? I must take acception to your suggestion. ... and that one isn't?
PS (Bible is a proper noun and should always be capitalized.) What fire? (Christian is a proper noun and should always be capitalized.) My roots are blond, thank you very much.Welcome to the Forum Zachariah. Just having a bit of fun with you. Bad habit of mine. Actually I am quite fond of The Good Book. It is so much better than most people know. Much better than I first believed. But nothing to get your tail in a knot over. God loves you, yes. And if he has anything truly important to say to you he can call or write you personally. Doesn't need a bunch of long dead Jews to that for him. But then I'm assuming that your God, like mine, is still alive. Sorry if I'm wrong about that.Best wishes,db

No. But we trust them insofar as they're corraborated by evidence. That's not why we trust them. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate and can often be outright lies. Well, remember there's more possibilities than just your version of Christianity and atheism. There's like a bazillion other religions, remember? The problem with Pascal's Wager is that you're guaranteed to wind up in someone else's hell.If a bazillion people can't agree on something, you know what conclusions reasonable people come to? "They must all be wrong." Hence, atheism - the position that all religions are wrong. (Sort of.) Of course. There's the same possibility with you, of course. If we're just talking about belief, there's no way to know who's right.So lets shitcan belief and see what the evidence says, because that's going to be the most accurate way to see what's real and what isn't, don't you think?

I would really like to see where I said that. If you are reffering to my last statement which was to ask if any of you here would say there was a possibility you were wrong, then it would be great if you could fully grasp what was being said. Don't get so defensive and start crying that same old song and dance you all like to use so often. (I say a belief of mine and you say I'm being judgemental and closeminded etc....) You guys kill me. Where exactly am I being disingenuous? By trying to be christian, but on the other hand tell you what would happen if you stay on the same path. Give me a break. It's called the TRUTH by christians and disingenuous, judgemental and the like by you and your little group. With all due respect Albert isn't GOD. His beliefs will get you nowhere in the end. You may be smarter by reading it, but when it's all said and done I could ask you the same question. "After reading Sidelights on Relativity and making the _____conclusion is it possible that you could be wrong? You wouldn't get all defensive at that would you? Why? Because it doesn't have to do with GOD. Face it, when you are faced with conversations about God you get all uptight inside. Well, get over it. Why not? In your world there are no absolutes, I can do whatever I like. If it's good for me then who cares what you think. I'll just walk up and take your cake. That should be okay shouldn't it. If there is no GOD after all what rules do I have to live by. Who sets the moral standards, people? Na, but if they do then why would any morals be good if we have no GOD in which can tell us what standards make something good or not. Are you getting the point yet or shall I go on? -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-23-2004 02:15 AM

Yeah Yeshua is alive indeed. Thanks for the english refresher.

Well, so is the Bible. You just except not to except it. So you would rather be in anyones version of hell rather than a version of heaven? Interesting. You never change crash. I'm working on you though. The good Lord could use someone like you. If you'ld stop being so pigheaded and arrogant all the time. LOL!!!!!!!! Peace -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-23-2004 02:26 AM

The information contained in a book is only part of the body of evidence that people use in coming to a conclusion. That info has to fit in with all the other available evidence. To blindly accept the contents of a book is something a child does, I don’t think I know anyone who simply accepts that everything in a book true. Unless you count some Christians that I know. I disagree. I would argue that there are very few history books where the author eye witnessed all the events he reports on. Can you name one book that the author claims to be an eyewitness to all he reports? Where do you get this tripe from? LOL , What date are you proposing for the first circulated Bible? It isn’t because these things happened a long time ago, it is because many biblical events either contradict the laws of nature, contradict each other, have artificial chronologies, composite accounts written over many centuries, unreliable historical accounts, etc. Yes the gospels are ‘according to_____’ that is why we have no idea who actually wrote them, well it is one reason. You forget that many of us here have believed that the Bible is 100% true in everything it claims. However, some of us grow up and develop inquiry skills that do not allow us to accept ancient Semitic campfire tales as being true. Some of us actually understand why the Bible was written. But we know that the majority of it has been falsified, that is that parts that can be falsified. The Bible has an extremely poor record as a reliable historical source, time to waken up. It is either stubbornness or we accept the facts. Being stubborn is to bury your head in the sand and ignore everything that science, archaeology and history tells us. There is also the possibility that these claims are untrue, if you were more open minded you would enjoy the Bible more, and appreciate it more. There is the FACT that you have definitely misinterpreted an awful lot. Nineteen years is a long enough sentence . I am surprised you haven’t read the Bible all the way through, even one book a week would only take just over a year, and some are so short that it should take less time than this. We used this approach at Bible Studies when I was about 12, you should try it. There were actually real Hebrews? Do you have any evidence of a culture that referred to themselves as ‘Hebrew’? Sunday isn’t the Sabbath, Sunday is the Lord’s Day. Pascal’s Wager, you are following God for all the wrong reasons, you are assuming that God is stupid, oh dear. I have lived a good life, done good things (still do), don’t break the law, yet if the Bible myths are true I go to Hell! Ah the unconditional love of Jesus is very moving ‘believe in me or burn forever’, who could fail to love the guy? You seriously have to examine your reasons for being a Christian, do you think that you can con God by believing in him as an ‘insurance policy’. You must believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, to believe in him because there may be a reward at the end wont get your anywhere near those pearly gates.Brian.

No, I get your point. And it is a good one. I can now honestly say that I dearly hope that you keep your faith.PS I recommend skipping the OT, there's some really nasty rules in there, like brutally murdering anyone that picks up firewood on the Sabbath. It may sound like fun at first, but what if you innocently forget what day it is? They really don't make it very clear about timezones, either.This message has been edited by mogur, 05-23-2004 05:48 AM

No, it's contradicted by the evidence. For instance, Noah's flood didn't happen - contradicted by the evidence. The Exodus is contradicted by the evidence, or at least the lack of evidence. The existence of the God of the Bible is contradicted by the fact that the God described in the Bible isn't consistent with the condition of the world we observe.Genesis is contradicted by the evidence of evolution. No, of course not. The point is, there's no way to tell who's right, so lets go with the evidence, ok?Well, the evidence says that the only thing we can be sure about is the existence of the world we're in right now. So why assume there's anything more? That's atheism.And even if I'm wrong, I don't really fear hell, because if God exists, he didn't write the Bible. If the God that exists is one who is content to act like he doesn't exist, then I don't expect to be blamed for taking him at his word. I have changed, though. I used to be a Christian, like pretty much all atheists in America.What, you thought your shitty efforts at prosletyzing would be enough to convince me? Please. Says you, but then, I'm not the one convinced that he's the only one with the ultimate truth about the universe, now am I? I'm not the one who claims to know better than other people what religion they should have, now am I?Looks like you're the arrogant one here.

The latter doesn't follow from the former. Just because there's no absolutes doesn't mean that there's no rules, or that it isn't wrong to break them.Man may have come up with the rules of Monopoly, but that doesn't mean it's not cheating to break them.And moreover, your little gaffe doesn't explain why generally, atheists are better people than Christians. After all, they get divorced less, and are less represented in the prison population.If atheists believe they can do whatever they want, why is it that they're underrepresented among the criminal population?

Wow, they jumped on you like a stirred up anthill!

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I'm a christian of 19 years that has never finished reading the bible once.

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I was a Christian for 43 years. I have read the Bible several times completely through and various translations. If I was any good at languages I would have loved to learn Hebrew, but I don't have that talent. I was always very active in the church, which means I saw a lot of the inner workings. (Very scarey!)

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Do you all have faith in any book you have ever read in school.

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I love books. I love to read. I can read 1800 words a minute with 85% comprehension. (Yes I was tested. College-Speed Reading Class) And no I don't necessarily trust everything I read. If it sounds "hinky" (I like that word) I do research.Have you ever heard the phrase "the computer or software is only as good as its programmer?" Well a book is only as good as its writer, which leaves all manuscripts open to human error. (I was a journalist in the USMC)Would you believe that George Washington did not throw a silver dollar across the Potomac River? According to my research for a story many+ years ago it was actually a stone across the Rappahannock River. I printed that short story with that information correction in it and no one called me a heretic or said I would suffer in eternal agony. You see in the scheme of things it didn't really matter. No one (that I know of anyway and no I haven't met everyone on the planet) is basing their life on that information.If I don't believe Abraham Lincoln was born in Kentucky, no one will point a finger and condemn me to suffering. My daughter may nag me to death since she is a Lincoln collecter, but no one else will try to lay a guilt trip on me.No one will try to end my life because I don't believe what is written about Abe Lincoln.Christianity wants me to base my life and what I think on the information in the Bible and reject everyting else, even common sense in some cases. I usually get burned when I don't use my common sense.In the Bible Accuracy Forum check out the topic I started on "Was Christianity Exposed?". I want you to read what I wrote concerning the Mormon church. To me that movement was to Christianity as Christianity was to the Jews.I do like the words of wisdom in the Bible:

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Proverbs 18:15
The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

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Take care and enjoy the day!

So far you're doing okay. You've come a long way for 19 years.The Bible is a great book and you really need to read it through several times.But the Bible is not Christianity. The Bible is simply a map, a guide. It was written by a whole host of people. Much of it, in fact nearly all of it, is simply parable. It is a collection of short stories meant to provide lessons for how best to live a good life.You bring up several very good points. For example... Many, many of those books are simply wrong. I remember one instance clearly from the little education that I do have. It said that the Savages were rounded up in Georgia and moved out west to Oklahoma. The reason was to make western Georgia safe for the settlers moving in.Well, the Master (yeah, we actually called the teachers Masters in that school) spent some time going over that. He said it would be the single most important history lesson we would learn that year, maybe the single most important lesson we would learn, period.Since it was a boarding school, he grabbed a bus the next Saturday and sent us off to the Library of Congress with a list of documents we were to lookup. They included letters from the period, the Supreme Court Decision Cherokee Nation vs State of Georgia and some of the photographs that were part of the Library's collection.What we found was that far from being savages, the Cherokees were successful farmers and land owners, the best educated and most prosperous people in the area. We found that the photos of the Cherokees homes showed not tepees or squaled huts but two and three story mansions filled with furniture from France and England, from Boston and New York. We found that there was no threat from savages, that it was a simply land grab and pogrom.When we next met in History Class, we were all furious that the History Book was simply lying, that the information was incorrect. I remember to this day, him sitting on the edge of his desk, nodding at each of us as we went over what we had learned. At the end of class he asked us what we had learned? "After this," he said, "will you ever take anything in a History Book at face value?"He was right. It was the single most important thing he ever taught us about history books.And the like.edited to added mandatory spelling errors.This message has been edited by jar, 05-23-2004 10:43 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion