none of the above

As a man, neither am I. For one thing, it's stupid. Christianity recognizes (at least my church did) that women tend to have a unique level of nurturing, caring, and listening - but they won't let them be pastors or priests, positions for which nurturing, caring, and listening are paramount.Also the idea that, as a man, I'm supposed to be the head of the marriage does not sit well with me. I can't possibly be the best person to make decisions in every single instance, nor the best possible person to "represent" my family in every instance.

[quote]I can't possibly be the best person to make decisions in every single instance, nor the best possible person to "represent" my family in every instance.[quote] Unless, of course, God exists and is very active in the lives of those who are his people. In that case, the best person to make the decision is the one God has chosen, because that is the one he will give the instructions to. The same is true concerning the "postition" of shepherd (pastor).However, that sounds pretty d*mn silly, because almost no one in America has ever seen any sort of Christian disciples except very "natural" ones, whose decisions are clearly based on their own emotions and mind and which obtain no apparent supernatural intervention in support of them. Those same "natural" Christian disciples tend to be as hard-headed, closed-minded, and unkind as any other human would be in a position of too much power, and that is what everyone has seen.In reference to your quote again, you used the phrase "to represent my family in every instance." Why not? The ambassador to France represents our country to them in virtually every instance? Why is he trusted to do that? Because he has the interests of the country in mind (let's assume he's a good ambassador), and because the President tells him our stance. A leader is not necessarily a dictator, and no good leader always dictates. Sometimes he listens to his followers and agrees, because while he can be the best person to represent his followers in every instance, he cannot possibly be the only one with a good idea in every instance.Even spiritual leaders have to listen to those who are not leaders.If there is a God that Christianity promotes, one thing that has always been true of him is that he has always selected a people to lead. He deals with the leader of that people, helping him make decisions. I realize that Moses' decisions are pretty unpopular nowadays, and I understand why, I nonetheless am quite convinced that I have seen God select leadership, supernaturally provide support and guidance to that leadership, and even overthrow that leadership when it ruled God's people in cruelty.Of course, I don't believe that Christianity in general has anything at all to do with God's people, so I'm not surprised that you've seen nothing that's a good example of what I just described. I think I could show you something different than you've ever seen, though, that would at least give you pause to think. Unfortunately, I doubt I could convince you that it's worth coming to Tennessee for a couple weeks or a month to ask questions, poke around, and find out.

Also, the diplomat has the advantage of a considerable amount of training and experience, as well as a fully-trained staff supplying him/her with all the relevant information.Even then I'm sure there's times where the diplomat says "I don't know anything about that; talk to my staff." Similarly in my future marriage I want to be able to say "A new mortgage, eh? Talk to my wife."Perhaps it makes more sense to talk about what I don't want - my church teaches that it is the man's purpose to lead and represent the interests of his family, and to have the final say on all decisions. The wife's purpose is to counsel, but ultimately submit to whatever decision the man makes, even if she feels it countervenes the family's interest.I don't see why that's at all an admirable marriage. I'm just a man; as fallible as the next person. Why should I have final say? Why should anyone?Don't get me wrong; I think leadership has its place, and I'm more than comfortable taking on that role when its appropriate that I do so. But I don't think a marriage is the place for leadership.

i'm an agnostic, but some people i can accept, need a 'god' in their lives in order to stay sane. I just tell them to choose a nice one.

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I'm not too fond of the male-superiority that Christianity promotes

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ok so cut out that stuff too...[This message has been edited by Gzus, 06-10-2003]

My beliefs are very personal, and I don't think I can discuss them in an open thread. I've never been very comfortable talking about them openly - its probably a side effect of being a non-Christian living in a predominantly Roman Catholic society.I'm sorry but I'm not willing to share them here. If you wish to discuss them privately, I can email you directly.Sorry.The Rock Hound

Although I can't really judge other religions, my experience of Catholicism here in Ireland hasn't been very all that nice. I feel there is too much about it that is archaic and frustrating, and sometimes I really think we'd be better off without it. This is probably because I was disillusioned with the Church when I was younger, and I'm not the only one.I've always wondered: how does the rest of the world feel about the Catholic Church?The Rock Hound

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My beliefs are very personal, and I don't think I can discuss them in an open thread. I've never been very comfortable talking about them openly - its probably a side effect of being a non-Christian living in a predominantly Roman Catholic society.
I'm sorry but I'm not willing to share them here. If you wish to discuss them privately, I can email you directly.

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Sorry.

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The Rock Hound

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Hey RH, don't apologize! I completely understand. Spirituality is a deeply personal issue for many people. I don't usually get into my ideas either because others would probably think, "uh oh, another whackjob!"If you're willing to discuss them privately, however, I am still interested. And should you decide against it, no problem. My email addy is roxrkool@yahoo.com.Cheers

How do others feel about the RC? Hmmmmm.....I grew up an atheist in a very fundy/baptist environment, so of course it was heavily permeated with the Protestant critique of Catholicism. And I have to say this: the criticism is valid in almost all it SOCIAL (rather then theological) aspects.IOW, the concerns are: the massive hypocrisy of the wealthy church, the fetishisation of "saints", the overt power relationships between the shephard and the flock, the undeniable role the established church has played in the legitimisation of cruel and barbaric tyrants and kings. This is the church that proclaimed that poverty and excess were gods will and cannot be challenged.Religion is a con perpetrated on the gullible by the cunning. Catholicism is the most spectacularly succesful of these cons in christiantity.But all that said, I hate the protestants and the evangelicals more.

I'm more worried about the effect it has on the government. There was a referendum here a while ago about abortion - and the Church were utter bastards about it. It was all ranting about abortion is wrong and sinful and you're going to hell blah blah blah... then saying that contraception was also wrong etc. There's a clear message there - although priests must be celibate, they want everyone else to breed like rabbits so more kids grow up Catholic.There's been no end of scandal around the Church here too - mostly to do with priests and nuns abusing children in the 1970's, when the Church did their best to cover it all up.Is Ireland alone in this respect? Are there any other countries that experience this kind of thing?

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IOW, the concerns are: the massive hypocrisy of the wealthy church, the fetishisation of "saints", the overt power relationships between the shephard and the flock, the undeniable role the established church has played in the legitimisation of cruel and barbaric tyrants and kings. This is the church that proclaimed that poverty and excess were gods will and cannot be challenged.

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All true in my experience. But I'm curious - why do you hate protestants more contracycle?The Rock Hound------------------
"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."

Ireland is very far from alone - you will recall that the RCC has been pilloried recently for covering up child molestation in America. In recent months, thousands of Spanish people demanded that the Pope excommunicate them as a protest against the Church's stance on contraception.But: while all of these are severe and important social problems, there is still a strand of philosophical sophistication in catholicism, shaky and intermittent as it may be. Relatively speaking, I find catholics easier to deal with in daily life than fundamentalists.My experience of the protestant faiths is that they are in fact much MORE fraudulent than catholicism; because the preacher is indeed relying much more on personal charisma, on saying what the audience wants to hear, in pandering to their prejudices and bundling all this small-town bigotry into a package called 'Gods Love'.

The diplomat example is better than you seem to realize. Does the ambassador to France represent the country to Japan too? No. Does s/he represent the country on a trade negotiation even on involving France? No. That is, not in all instances.

The thing is, women were considered chattel, more or less, in the Bible. There are a few remarkable women in there, but all of them were subjegated to males simply because they were female.I'm sorry, but the Bible and Judeo/Christianity, along with other world religions, simply use God to justify male dominance and superiority, and thus female subjegation and inferiority.To read what the Bible instructs females to act like, and to read what the Bible states women are worth and to be used for, is pretty awful.I mean, female children are worth less than some inanimate objects.

Shraf,How do you feel about women who willingly *submit* to their husbands because they are told that is what a good Christian woman does?

Hello,I just wanted to say that like a lot of you, I came to the realization that the only reason I was a Christian was because that's how I was raised. I refer to this as 'indoctrination' or 'brainwashing' which as you can tell, does not please the Christians too much.But, I think it's true, otherwise how do you explain the "belts" of religion around the world? Iran is especially interesting--surrounded by Sunni Muslims--it retains its Shia identity.This, plus the obvious unusual math and logic in Genesys caused me to dig further. This was all when I was a teenager and so I asked most of the elders and preachers (I was raised as a fundamentalist So. Baptist) about some of these things and the BEST answer I've ever gotten is, "God works in mysterious ways."That never really cut it for me...and most of the Christians I've talked to since haven't come up with anything better. Then I went and searched for answers elsewhere. Which is how I came to study history, philosophy and archaeology, learn about natural selection, the Big Bang, other scientific theories, geology, astronomy -- I became (and am) a knowledge junkie. I want to know it all.Maybe I can't ever really know it all, but I will not waste another day of my life being told, "the ways of God are not for man to question or understand."And, thanks to my studies and this forum, I've already learned a lot--especially about myself. Thanks to Crashfrog for helping me realize I am Agnostic (at least for the time being)!wr/Geno