Straggler writes:
QUESTIONS
1) Which came first for you personally (honestly) - Belief in God/Jesus/Bible or knowledge of the empirical evidence that you consider to support this position?
2) Are your beliefs the result of rational and objective conclusions based on physical evidence which have been confirmed by your relationship with God OR are your beliefs based on your relationship with God which you deem to have been confirmed by the objective physical evidence available? Which way round is it?
3) Could you maintain your faith in the absence of any objective empirical evidence that supports this position? (I.e. how faithful are you?)
4) If the objective empirical evidence which you deem to support your beliefs were present but the relationship with God side of your faith was absent would you still believe as you do? (I.e. is the empirical evidence alone enough to maintain your position?)
5) Is empirical evidence or subjective knowledge of God's presence the root basis of your beliefs?
END QUESTIONS
Good job on the OP, Straggler. These questions are well thought out and well articulated with the exception that Imo, you're over emphasizing the
empirical thing. Since there's a whole lot of science stuff that's not regarded as
empirical, aren't you requiring a higher standard here on us to whom the questions are directed?
Definition: Empirical Evidence:
The dictionary definition of empirical evidence is evidence relating to or based on experience or observation. This type of evidence is necessary for a theory to be confirmed.
(Embolding mine for emphasis)
1. Since my birth in 1935, no one in my family darkened a church door until I was around 9 or 10 years old, about 1945. When we moved to town the neighbors got permission to take 3 of us older kids to the local Baptist Sunday school & church. This hadn't gone on long before an evangelist/prophecy teacher, Clay Cooper from the West coast somewhere came in and did evangelistic services, integrating Biblical prophecy into the messages. About that time, after the war, the the Jewish people were on the move from Europe and things were progressing in Palestine for the emergence of the Jewish state which was to become Israel in 1948.
As for my conversion, those prophecy messages preached inspiringly, citing the prophecies of Israel relative to the news and other prophetic messages during this week of evening services were what motivated me to be one of the people in the meetings to go forward and kneel at the front pew to ask Jesus to save my soul. Eventually all 8 members of the family became Christians. Our parents have gone on to be with the Lord and all five of my brothers and sisters remain devout evangelical Christians.
The oldest daughter of the neighbor folks who took us to church was beside me at the front pew praying. I was dry eyed and to me it was somewhat like a matter of fact offer from God which I was receiving with little emotion. However the neighbor girl beside me showed emotion and cried some.
A week or so after my conversion some doubts came into my thinking as I thought about my conversion in that I had not experienced any emotional high, so to speak, as the girl beside me had. However as I was reading a little salvation tract of scriptures it became clear to me that this doubt was of Satan. The little tract had the verses of 1st John 5:11, 12, and 13 in it. I believe it was providential that that track was there for me. It said these reassuring words: (perhaps not exact quote but close-it became one of my memory verses) " This is the record, that God has given us eternal life and this life is in his son. He that has the son, has life; and he that has not the son of God has not life. These things have I written to you that believe on his name that you may know that you have eternal life." There was another verse in the tract which was John 1:12. "As many as have received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God."
It was the prophecy evidence coupled with inspirational preaching of the corresponding Biblical prophecies
and the sin/salvation message of the gospel of Jesus the savior which motivated me to a conversion experience at a young age.
I believe that the power of the Holy Spirit brings conviction to the conscience of sinful mankind and draws the seeking soul to a salvation experience in which the multipresent Holy Spirit actually becomes integral to the mind/brain area within the body of the person. I believe that that night, the Holy Spirit effected a conversion and I began to grow into maturity as a
new babe in Christ Jesus born spiritually into a child of God.
I've answered your #1 question in depth because for me, though it was not an emotional moment experience, but the most significant turning point in my life.
As to whether I was motivated by faith or evidence, it was definitely both; perhaps 50/50. This man, Clay Cooper was not only an inspiring speaker, but well versed in scripture, history, and current events. His nightly messages were put forth in a manner that even a 10 year old inquisitive and impressionable child sat on the edge of the seat, so to speak, so as not to miss the good news.
2. I believe this was covered in my #1 answer.
3. For me I may have responded to gospel message on the basis of guilt/conscience sin problem. Back in those days the great majority of Americans were theists and had an ingrained idea that God existed as well as a belief in Heaven and Hell. Thus, there was an underlying conscious conviction of the sin problem. When explained fully and accurately, the gospel message of the NT makes good sense to a lot of folks.
Having said that, I believe that for me, the possibility of becoming an
apostate would have been far greater, were it not for the
reasonable evidence, some which I would categorize as
empirical and some which may not be regarded as such.
4. This question took a bit more thought for a forthright response. I believe it was the apostle Peter in Ist Peter 2:2
who said "As new babes in Christ, desire the sincere milk of the word, that you may grow thereby...." (not sure if exact)
The closer one draws to God, i.e. reads scripture, prays, attends classes, fellowship, etc, the more I am convinced that God draws to us and the more he reveals himself to us. That is definitely my experience. There have been such phenomenal experiential incidents in my life that I am absolutely convinced of this.
I found that early in my Christian life I needed support from mentors, pastors and teachers coupled with prayer; Otherwise the evidence would have become less meaningless to the Christian life and more of a phenomena that was overshadowed by the pleasures, duties and experiences of the secular as aspects of life. Without the daily reading of the scriptures including things like the wisdom of King Solomon's Proverbs and the prophetical books along with the social and moral good and sensible aspects of the scriptures, the evidence alone would not be nearly as significant.
For one thing the evidence is not understood without corroborating the prophets and itemizing the significant ones so as to ingrain them into the mind. Eschatology is not for novices. Imo many of the notable prophecy preachers are
full of beans on some of the issues. Too many of them tend to regurgitate stuff from books of their contemporaries rather than doing the scripture intensive study and corroborating the prophets in order to get the full picture. In short, few care about or are aware of the evidences. Some are vaguely aware, but the cares of the world take priority.
In summary to the above on #4, without the faith/inspiration/gospel aspects of the Christian life, perhaps I would not have researched and apprised myself enough on the evidences to keep me
in the faith
Sadly, relative few of the patrons of America's churches are apprised of archaeological evidences such as the significant Exodus research that has been done.
Few professing Christians prioritize their Christianity. For most, church is either not relevant or it's a one hour a week social event and the Bible is opened once or twice a week or never.
#5. 50/50
Edited by Buzsaw, : Delete sentence. Add title
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
™ Version 4.2
