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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 196 of 277 (791827)
09-22-2016 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by kjsimons
09-21-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
the hanks ass stuff is amusing and showcases how non believers may view the rules that some believers may insist on, but also minimizes the passion and reason for belief from our standpoint. The box that you put God in is different from my perspective.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by kjsimons, posted 09-21-2016 7:30 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Asgara, posted 09-22-2016 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2016 5:11 PM Phat has responded

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1779
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(4)
Message 197 of 277 (791828)
09-22-2016 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
09-22-2016 3:06 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
You find it amusing because you don't think it is realistic to your experience. I find it amusing because it is exactly how your rationale sounds to others.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 09-22-2016 3:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4546
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 198 of 277 (791829)
09-22-2016 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
09-22-2016 3:06 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

but also minimizes the passion and reason for belief from our standpoint. The box that you put God in is different from my perspective.

We can see the passion but not the reason.

Somehow believers think that the more passionate their belief the more persuasive that must be. We see that the more passionate the belief the deeper the delusion and the more the deluded are then prepared to act irrationally on their beliefs.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 09-22-2016 3:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 199 of 277 (791843)
09-23-2016 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Tangle
09-22-2016 5:11 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
We see that the more passionate the belief the deeper the delusion and the more the deluded are then prepared to act irrationally on their beliefs.
Which would be true if He didnt exist.

The Bible talks of delusion...(not that you are impressed) and it talks of those who believe the Lie as being deluded. It also says God will send the delusion.

The reason is that people had no love for the truth.

Your truth is based solely on physical verifiable evidence.

The reason for accepting evidence must be contemplated.

I believe that we accept what we want to accept. You dont have to accept any unproved thing if you dont want to.

Let me ask you this....if there were evidence that Jesus was God, would you worship Him or would you find an excuse to oppose Him. (Hypothetical Question)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2016 5:11 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2016 5:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4546
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 200 of 277 (791844)
09-23-2016 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
09-23-2016 3:15 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

Which would be true if He didnt exist.

It's true even if "He" does exist. People blowing themselves up and killing others for their passionately held beliefs is wrong no matter whether "He" exists or not.

(not that you are impressed)

Correct

Let me ask you this....if there were evidence that Jesus was God, would you worship Him or would you find an excuse to oppose Him. (Hypothetical Question)

Oppose him? What a daft idea. Ignore him maybe.

But if there was conclusive evidence all rational people would accept whatever it was. One thing I'm absolutely certain about, this worshipping stuff is utter bollox whether "He" exists or not - it's some weird masochistic/power thing that is entirely human in origin. No god would demand people grovel. What possible purpose could it serve? It's a primitive human artefact. Laughable.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6097
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 201 of 277 (791851)
09-23-2016 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
09-21-2016 12:47 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
the Bible clearly says that without faith....it is impossible to please God.

That is just another human using the same lame excuse you are using.

Many of you know what it is you are rejecting. You may claim that it is impossible to know without evidence.

We are rejecting claims that have no evidence to back them, just as you do all of the time. Also, knowing requires evidence by its very definition. Belief is not knowledge.

I contend that God exists and that the lack of evidence is a purposeful reality.

That is an argument that you would reject for any other claim.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 09-21-2016 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 202 of 277 (791854)
09-23-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
09-23-2016 3:15 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

Let me ask you this....if there were evidence that Jesus was God, would you worship Him or would you find an excuse to oppose Him.


False dichotomy.

I'd ask him the same questions I ask you: Why does He feel a need to be worshipped? If I did oppose Him, how would that affect Him?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:57 PM ringo has responded
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 1:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 203 of 277 (791859)
09-23-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
09-23-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Lemme get this straight. Assuming that Jesus was God...not a spaghetti monster. Not a creation of your brain. Not a character in a book.

You seem to think that if such a thing as a Creator of all seen and unseen were in human form and in the room next to you you would simply stroll over to him and ask questions? Did it ever occur to you that you would not be on His level? Just sayin..
and keep in mind we are being hypothetical for the purpose of this argument.

Lets get even more hypothetical. Say you turn this question back to me. First, describe to me the character and nature of a hypothetical God that YOU create.

Then I'll tell you my response


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 6:07 PM Phat has responded
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 11:54 AM Phat has responded
 Message 215 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28688
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 204 of 277 (791862)
09-23-2016 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
09-23-2016 3:57 PM


one learns by asking questions of those not on the same level.
Phat writes:

You seem to think that if such a thing as a Creator of all seen and unseen were in human form and in the room next to you you would simply stroll over to him and ask questions? Did it ever occur to you that you would not be on His level?

Come on Phat. You learn by asking questions of those NOT on your level.

Of course questions should be asked of Jesus or God, just as the Bible stories show us.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 1:51 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 205 of 277 (791864)
09-24-2016 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
09-23-2016 6:07 PM


Re: one learns by asking questions of those not on the same level.
so what sort of questions would you ask Him? And can you imagine what sort of questions He might ask you?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 09-23-2016 6:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 09-24-2016 7:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 206 of 277 (791865)
09-24-2016 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
09-23-2016 11:47 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Why does He feel a need to be worshiped?
He may say that worship is totally voluntary. He may feel offended if you ignored Him and turned on the football game IF He was trying to have a conversation with you, however.

If I did oppose Him, how would that affect Him?
He may say that opposing Him would not affect Him but it might affect YOU.

Upon further reflection of the worship question, He may say that worship causes you to focus. Worship is for our benefit...not His.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 09-23-2016 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28688
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 207 of 277 (791866)
09-24-2016 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
09-24-2016 1:51 AM


Re: one learns by asking questions of those not on the same level.
Phat writes:

so what sort of questions would you ask Him?

Why he didn't put more padding on shinbones? Why he didn't use two separate paths for taking in food and breathing? Why did he make okra so slimy? What was the reason to invent cockroaches?

Phat writes:

And can you imagine what sort of questions He might ask you?

What makes you think I designed those things?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 1:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 208 of 277 (791871)
09-24-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
09-23-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

You seem to think that if such a thing as a Creator of all seen and unseen were in human form and in the room next to you you would simply stroll over to him and ask questions?


Why would He come to earth disguised as a human if that wasn't what He wanted?

Phat writes:

First, describe to me the character and nature of a hypothetical God that YOU create.


A being that created all that is seen and unseen would probably be fairly aloof from much of its creation. He wouldn't be impressed if it "worshipped" Him. He wouldn't feel the need to destroy it, or to create a fiction in His own mind about sending His Son to "save" it from Himself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:01 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12922
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 209 of 277 (791872)
09-24-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
09-24-2016 1:56 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

He may feel offended if you ignored Him and turned on the football game IF He was trying to have a conversation with you, however.


If humans can carry on a conversation during a football game, why can't God?

When people say they can't hear themselves think, I tell them to think louder.

Phat writes:

Upon further reflection of the worship question, He may say that worship causes you to focus. Worship is for our benefit...not His.


I agree. So why do I need the distraction of a god to help me focus?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 1:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 210 of 277 (791874)
09-24-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by ringo
09-24-2016 11:54 AM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

First, describe to me the character and nature of a hypothetical God that YOU create.


A being that created all that is seen and unseen would probably be fairly aloof from much of its creation.
Only if It wanted to be. Perhaps It would want to be involved.
He wouldn't be impressed if it "worshiped" Him.

Perhaps He would be proud. Perhaps He would feel that the creation was better off worshiping Him rather than gold, fast cars, or faster women.

He wouldn't feel the need to destroy it, or to create a fiction in His own mind about sending His Son to "save" it from Himself.
He may think that a free willed creation was capable of destroying itself. He may also feel that sending His Son as a messenger would be the only way to preserve the free will.. Perhaps this creation meant a lot to Him and He didn't want to simply destroy this pot and start a new one. He wanted the intellectual and moral development to potentially continue without directly interfering and making the vessel perfect.

We have argued before about the hole in the front yard being an "attractive nuisance". Perhaps the hole had to be there to allow the creation the challenge and personal growth of avoiding it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 09-25-2016 2:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:13 PM Phat has responded

  
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