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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Phat
Member
Posts: 9898
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 211 of 277 (791875)
09-24-2016 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ringo
09-24-2016 12:00 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
So why do I need the distraction of a god to help me focus?

What would you be focused on?

Why is a god a distraction? Is a wife a distraction from a football game?

Is an attractive wife as much of a distraction?

Can God make Himself attractive? Moreso than the nuisances which take our time and money and fool us?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ringo, posted 09-24-2016 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-24-2016 7:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 09-25-2016 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1586
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 212 of 277 (791878)
09-24-2016 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
09-24-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Can God make Himself attractive?

No, because if such a being exists it never reveals itself to win admirers. Total invisibility, total inactivity, total lack of interaction with nonbelievers is not attractive. It has all the characteristics of non-existence and in fact cannot be shown to exist.

Moreso than the nuisances which take our time and money and fool us?

You mean like religion?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13734
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 213 of 277 (791881)
09-25-2016 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Phat
09-24-2016 2:01 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

Only if It wanted to be. Perhaps It would want to be involved.

Perhaps He would be proud. Perhaps He would feel that the creation was better off worshiping Him rather than gold, fast cars, or faster women.


You asked me to describe the character and nature of a hypothetical God that I create. We already know about the one that YOU create and we already know that I think it's illogical.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the hole had to be there to allow the creation the challenge and personal growth of avoiding it.


We're quite capable of creating our own challenges.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13734
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 214 of 277 (791882)
09-25-2016 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
09-24-2016 2:05 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

What would you be focused on?


Whatever the hell I feel like focusing on.

Phat writes:

Is a wife a distraction from a football game?


Yes.

Phat writes:

Why is a god a distraction?


That's a good analogy for once; the god you envision is very much like a nagging wife.

Phat writes:

Is an attractive wife as much of a distraction?


Yes. There can be positive distractions and negative distractions.

Phat writes:

Is an attractive wife as much of a distraction?


Unfortunately, we are often attracted to women who are no good for us.

Phat writes:

Moreso than the nuisances which take our time and money and fool us?


Worse than that, your god is downright genocidal.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7196
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 215 of 277 (791905)
09-26-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
09-23-2016 3:57 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

You seem to think that if such a thing as a Creator of all seen and unseen were in human form and in the room next to you you would simply stroll over to him and ask questions?

Have you read the Gospels? Pretty sure there are instances where Jesus' disciples did just that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 09-23-2016 3:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7196
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 216 of 277 (791906)
09-26-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Phat
09-24-2016 2:01 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Phat writes:

He may think that a free willed creation was capable of destroying itself. He may also feel that sending His Son as a messenger would be the only way to preserve the free will.. Perhaps this creation meant a lot to Him and He didn't want to simply destroy this pot and start a new one. He wanted the intellectual and moral development to potentially continue without directly interfering and making the vessel perfect.

Exactly what we would expect from a non-existent deity.

Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Phat, posted 09-24-2016 2:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 8:10 PM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9898
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 217 of 277 (791916)
09-26-2016 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Taq
09-26-2016 1:13 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?
Yes. Your free will.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-26-2016 1:13 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 09-26-2016 9:25 PM Phat has responded
 Message 222 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 218 of 277 (791920)
09-26-2016 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-26-2016 8:10 PM


you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Taq writes:

Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?

Yes. Your free will.

You gotta explain that. How is free will evidence of anything supernatural?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 8:10 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 11:50 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9898
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 219 of 277 (791921)
09-26-2016 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
09-26-2016 9:25 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
He is free to believe in the Deity that doesnt exist and in fact differentiates it from the one I believe in. My Deity exists.

And as you have stated before, it is impossible to measure the supernatural ...

How is free will evidence of anything supernatural?
The supernatural is limited to belief. There is no evidence. Essentially one side believes in evidence. The belief is in lack of evidence...or a Deity that does not exist.

The other side has only their belief. They believe in a Deity that exists.

You cant say that my belief is incorrect. You can only say that it is likely incorrect if you adhere to the criteria of evidence. For you my belief may be indistinguishable from a non existent Deity. For me, it is not. That is essentially the difference.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 09-26-2016 9:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 7:54 AM Phat has responded
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:35 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 220 of 277 (791922)
09-27-2016 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Phat
09-26-2016 11:50 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
So freewill is NOT evidence of anything.

Got it.

But why do you claim that it is evidence?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 11:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:18 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9898
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 221 of 277 (791923)
09-27-2016 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
09-27-2016 7:54 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Yes. The question was
quote:
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?
and my answer was that ones own belief...ones freewilled belief, opinion, or spirituality is what distinguishes existence vs non-existence of a Deity.

Obviously we cannot have evidence of the supernatural, but we ourselves are the living evidence of our beliefs through our actions. Not to say that Christian actions are any better or worse than atheist actions...but they are different in that Christians give the credit to a God in whom they believe while atheists do not.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 7:54 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:29 AM Phat has responded
 Message 227 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 11:04 AM Phat has responded
 Message 228 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:06 AM Phat has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7196
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 222 of 277 (791924)
09-27-2016 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
09-26-2016 8:10 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational Remix
Yes. Your free will.

How does that distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 8:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7196
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 223 of 277 (791925)
09-27-2016 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:18 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

and my answer was that ones own belief...ones freewilled belief, opinion, or spirituality is what distinguishes existence vs non-existence of a Deity

Can you please explain how people are incapable of believing in a deity that doesn't exist?

Obviously we cannot have evidence of the supernatural, but we ourselves are the living evidence of our beliefs through our actions. Not to say that Christian actions are any better or worse than atheist actions...but they are different in that Christians give the credit to a God in whom they believe while atheists do not.

If the supernatural is real, why couldn't we have evidence of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:39 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7196
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 224 of 277 (791926)
09-27-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Phat
09-26-2016 11:50 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

He is free to believe in the Deity that doesnt exist and in fact differentiates it from the one I believe in.

If people are capable of believing in deities that don't exist then how is your belief evidence that your preferred deity exists?

The supernatural is limited to belief. There is no evidence. Essentially one side believes in evidence. The belief is in lack of evidence...or a Deity that does not exist.

The lack of evidence for a deity isn't a belief. It is a fact, by your own admission.

You cant say that my belief is incorrect. You can only say that it is likely incorrect if you adhere to the criteria of evidence. For you my belief may be indistinguishable from a non existent Deity. For me, it is not. That is essentially the difference.

Do you understand what the burden of proof is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 09-26-2016 11:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:43 AM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9898
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 225 of 277 (791927)
09-27-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Taq
09-27-2016 10:29 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Can you please explain how people are incapable of believing in a deity that doesn't exist?
Yes. Scripture explains it in Revelation. The Beast which you saw once was, now is not, and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Does the Beast exist, apart from a character in literature? Answer that one.

If the supernatural is real, why couldn't we have evidence of it?
What tests do you propose we use?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:29 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 09-27-2016 11:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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