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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 226 of 277 (791928)
09-27-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Taq
09-27-2016 10:35 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Do you understand what the burden of proof is?
Perhaps not. Enlighten me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 10:35 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(4)
Message 227 of 277 (791929)
09-27-2016 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:18 AM


Stubbed Toe
Phat writes:

quote:
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?

...and my answer was that ones own belief...ones freewilled belief, opinion, or spirituality is what distinguishes existence vs non-existence of a Deity.

Have you ever stubbed your toe, Phat?

You know. You're walking along, certainly fully believing that every step you take is going to be on solid ground. I mean, if you didn't believe such a thing... you'd take some caution to look, right? So off you go, in fully 100% committed belief that the ground you're walking on is just fine. You believe so much, you don't even have to think about it, even. And then... blam! Your toe catches a part of the ground you didn't notice and you stub your toe.

Therefore, your freewilled belief, opinion or 100% acceptance did not distinguish existence vs. non-existence of solid ground beneath your feet.

If your freewilled belief and opinion alone isn't enough to keep you from stubbing your toe, what makes you think it alone is good enough to save you from Hell?

The fact is, Phat... you're falling into the very pitfall you try to put everyone else in.
The devil's best trick is to convince you that he doesn't exist.
His second best trick is to convince you that you're on the "right" path, when all you have to do is actually look around to see the darkness you've led yourself into.

If God's good and real, He has no use for tricks or subterfuge.

The fact that you're insisting that God must remain hidden in order to believe in Him... is a fact that shows nothing other than you being on a non-Godly path. It's the path of a trickster who wants you to be on that path and stop thinking about getting onto the right path.

What trickster?

Maybe the devil.
Maybe some bad people.
Maybe yourself.

But that really doesn't matter.
What does matter, and is very clear, is that a path without verification is a path of gullibility. A real, good God would not create such a path where His loyal followers could so easily be taken unawares by any other trickster.

Stop being led blindy by who-knows-what is guiding you.
Use your God-given talents to follow God when you know He's there.

Follow love, friendship, and honour.
Stop wasting time on tradition, unknowns, and idolatry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:43 AM Stile has not yet responded
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:57 AM Stile has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 228 of 277 (791930)
09-27-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:18 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Yes. The question was

quote:
Is there anything that would distinguish the God you believe in from a deity that doesn't exist?
and my answer was that ones own belief...ones freewilled belief, opinion, or spirituality is what distinguishes existence vs non-existence of a Deity.

But of course that is factually wrong. Your belief has nothing to do with distinguishing anything other than your personal belief. It does not distinguish between existence or non-existence of anything in reality.

Phat writes:

Obviously we cannot have evidence of the supernatural, but we ourselves are the living evidence of our beliefs through our actions. Not to say that Christian actions are any better or worse than atheist actions...but they are different in that Christians give the credit to a God in whom they believe while atheists do not.

Again, that is simply factually wrong and also does not help answer the question at all. You even point that out when you post "but they are different in that Christians give the credit to a God in whom they believe while atheists do not." which shows again that the only difference is in the belief of the person and has nothing to do with the actual existence or non-existence of any deity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:35 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 229 of 277 (791931)
09-27-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
09-27-2016 11:06 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
But of course that is factually wrong. Your belief has nothing to do with distinguishing anything other than your personal belief. It does not distinguish between existence or non-existence of anything in reality.
Not true. What you do shows who you are. You can preach till the cows come home but if you dont do anything but dance and sing about it, nobody sees anything other than a flake.

It is a fact that we represent Jesus Christ here on earth. Or do you represent the Elks Club?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:06 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:44 AM Phat has responded
 Message 241 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 230 of 277 (791932)
09-27-2016 11:39 AM


Whose Club Do You Belong To?
I'll throw that question out to all of you. Who do you represent?

If you say you represent humanity, thats honest enough.

If you say you represent yourself, thats also a possibility.

jar, who do you represent?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:46 AM Phat has responded
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2016 12:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 231 of 277 (791933)
09-27-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Stile
09-27-2016 11:04 AM


Re: Stubbed Toe
Good post, by the way!

Good advice also.

Coming from you it means a lot!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 11:04 AM Stile has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 232 of 277 (791934)
09-27-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:35 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

jar writes:

But of course that is factually wrong. Your belief has nothing to do with distinguishing anything other than your personal belief. It does not distinguish between existence or non-existence of anything in reality.

Not true. What you do shows who you are. You can preach till the cows come home but if you dont do anything but dance and sing about it, nobody sees anything other than a flake.

It is a fact that we represent Jesus Christ here on earth. Or do you represent the Elks Club?

Try to understand the question. What you are is irrelevant. It has no bearing whatsoever on the existence or non-existence of any God.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:50 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 233 of 277 (791935)
09-27-2016 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:39 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Scripture explains it in Revelation. The Beast which you saw once was, now is not, and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life.


I think you're misreading that:
quote:
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It says that unbelievers will wonder, not that they will still disbelieve. And notice that they will see the Beast - i.e. they will have evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 234 of 277 (791936)
09-27-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:39 AM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
Phat writes:

jar, who do you represent?

Again, that is totally irrelevant to the topic. Why do you keep asking irrelevant questions?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:53 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 235 of 277 (791937)
09-27-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
09-27-2016 11:44 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
jar writes:

What you are is irrelevant. It has no bearing whatsoever on the existence or non-existence of any God.

Matt 16:13-18 writes:

NIV- When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

  • Did what Jesus say have any bearing on the existence or non existence of God?
  • Does it matter who Jesus is?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:44 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 237 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 236 of 277 (791938)
    09-27-2016 11:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by jar
    09-27-2016 11:46 AM


    Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
    Why do you keep asking irrelevant questions?
    To get you to tell me who you represent. For the record, I'll just mark down that you say its irrelevant.

    Or I can ask you again. Who do you represent in these discussions?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:46 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:58 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 237 of 277 (791939)
    09-27-2016 11:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
    09-27-2016 11:50 AM


    Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
    Phat writes:

    Did what Jesus say have any bearing on the existence or non existence of God?

    No.

    Phat writes:

    Does it matter who Jesus is?

    For this topic? No, it does not matter at all.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 235 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 238 of 277 (791940)
    09-27-2016 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 227 by Stile
    09-27-2016 11:04 AM


    Re: Stubbed Toe
    What does matter, and is very clear, is that a path without verification is a path of gullibility. A real, good God would not create such a path where His loyal followers could so easily be taken unawares by any other trickster.

    And I would agree. So about verification....Who Do You Represent?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 227 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 11:04 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 249 by Stile, posted 09-27-2016 3:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29364
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 239 of 277 (791941)
    09-27-2016 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
    09-27-2016 11:53 AM


    Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
    Phat writes:

    To get you to tell me who you represent. For the record, I'll just mark down that you say its irrelevant.

    Or I can ask you again. Who do you represent in these discussions?

    In any discussion related to things without factual evidence to support a position I can only represent myself.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:53 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 12:03 PM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9762
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 240 of 277 (791942)
    09-27-2016 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by jar
    09-27-2016 11:58 AM


    Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
    In any discussion related to things without factual evidence to support a position I can only represent myself.

    Is it possible to belong to a club and ignore certain bylaws since the bylaws have no evidence? (Yes)

    Is it right to call yourself an Elk without believing in the Elk bylaws?

    Is it more honest to represent the Elks when talking about what the club stands for or to represent yourself? (The Elks)


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 11:58 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 242 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 12:11 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 246 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 248 by ringo, posted 09-27-2016 12:32 PM Phat has responded

      
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