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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 241 of 277 (791943)
09-27-2016 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:35 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Not true. What you do shows who you are. You can preach till the cows come home but if you dont do anything but dance and sing about it, nobody sees anything other than a flake.
It is a fact that we represent Jesus Christ here on earth. Or do you represent the Elks Club?

In order for that to be a fact you would need to present evidence that Jesus is a reality. Otherwise, the only fact is that you are a representative of a human created religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:35 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28432
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 242 of 277 (791944)
09-27-2016 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
09-27-2016 12:03 PM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
Phat writes:

Is it possible to belong to a club and ignore certain bylaws since the bylaws have no evidence? (Yes)

Is it right to call yourself an Elk without believing in the Elk bylaws?

Is it more honest to represent the Elks when talking about what the club stands for or to represent yourself? (The Elks)

But the topic has nothing to do with the Elks or any other Club, so it is irrelevant to talk about the Elks or any other club in this thread.

The honest position is to try to address the topic.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 12:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 243 of 277 (791945)
09-27-2016 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:39 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Yes. Scripture explains it in Revelation. The Beast which you saw once was, now is not, and yet is for those whose names are not written in the book of life.
Does the Beast exist, apart from a character in literature? Answer that one.

Perhaps you should reread my question?

Can you please explain how people are incapable of believing in a deity that doesn't exist?

Also, you are the one who is claiming that the "Beast" exists. The burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate that the Beast exists. Do you still not understand how the burden of proof works?

What tests do you propose we use?

The tests that would distinguish the supernatural from something that is made up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 244 of 277 (791946)
09-27-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
09-27-2016 10:43 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Perhaps not. Enlighten me.

Betrand Russell did a nice job of explaining it:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

The burden of proof lies with those who make the positive claim. It isn't up to us to disprove claims that leprechauns, Bigfoot, or deities are real. The burden of proof lies with those who claim that these entities are real.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 10:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:36 PM Taq has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4405
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 245 of 277 (791947)
09-27-2016 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:39 AM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
Phat writes:

I'll throw that question out to all of you. Who do you represent?

What does this question mean? Anything?

My instinctive answer is 'nobody', but I'm struggling, as usual, to understand your question because your frame of reference is so alien to me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 246 of 277 (791948)
09-27-2016 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
09-27-2016 12:03 PM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
Phat writes:

Is it possible to belong to a club and ignore certain bylaws since the bylaws have no evidence? (Yes)

Is it right to call yourself an Elk without believing in the Elk bylaws?

Is it more honest to represent the Elks when talking about what the club stands for or to represent yourself? (The Elks)

Is it correct to claim it is a fact that the Elks represent the wishes of a cabal of reptilian overlords simply because you believe it to be true? Is it correct to claim that since there is no evidence to show that this claim isn't true that it must therefore be true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 12:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 247 of 277 (791949)
09-27-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:57 AM


Re: Stubbed Toe
Phat writes:

And I would agree. So about verification....Who Do You Represent?

Do you still think that if you believe something fervently enough that it becomes a fact?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 248 of 277 (791950)
09-27-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
09-27-2016 12:03 PM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
Phat writes:

Is it right to call yourself an Elk without believing in the Elk bylaws?


If the Elks accept you as an Elk, you're an Elk. If you disregard the bylaws, it's up to them to decide whether to dehorn you or not.

Edited by ringo, : Soelling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 12:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:19 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 249 of 277 (791952)
09-27-2016 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
09-27-2016 11:57 AM


Re: Stubbed Toe
Phat writes:

So about verification....Who Do You Represent?

I try to represent love, friendship and honour.

But I stub my toe a lot

Why do you think this label is important?

No one can show you who they "Do" represent.
People can only tell you who they represent.

Sometimes people are mistaken.
Sometimes people change.
Sometimes people lie.

If I fill my life with love, friendship and honour... does it matter if I say I represent God, or Satan, or Stile, or Thor, or The Great Gazoo?
If I fill my life with confusion and frustration... does it matter if I say I represent God or Satan, or Stile, or Thor, or The Great Gazoo?

Therefore, the only way to know the answer to this question... is to get to know the person you'd like the answer from. You'd have to spend time with them, you'd have to spend a lot of time with them... to understand the sorts of characteristics they fill their life with.

Once you spend that time, you won't even need to ask the question.
So, again, why do think such a label is important?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 11:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 250 of 277 (791953)
09-27-2016 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
09-27-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Whose Club Do You Belong To?
If the Elks accept you as an Elk, you're an Elk. If you disregard the bylaws, it's up to them to decide whether to dehorn you or not.

In your case they likely would keep you around for comic relief.

Edited by Phat, : added sentence


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 09-27-2016 12:32 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 251 of 277 (791954)
09-27-2016 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Taq
09-27-2016 12:17 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
One of the better counter-arguments to this quote is known as Russell’s Teapot
Essentially the counter-argument is that absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence.
quote:
We have good reasons for doubting an orbiting teapot; we know a good deal of relevant facts about entropy, materials science and the difficulty of getting an object into solar orbit. This is evidence which we can apply to the claim ‘there is a teapot orbiting the Sun between Mars and Earth.’ Teapots do not (except with vanishingly small probability) exist in nature except when human beings make them; and so we can say with confidence that it is immensely unlikely that there is such a teapot.

What, then, can we say about the probability of God? Nothing. We know that the probability of rolling a die (unbiased!) and getting a 6 is 1/6 because we have observed many, many dice rolled many, many times and we can count how often a 6 comes up.

But we know of only one universe, and the question of whether or not it is governed by God is the very point being debated; to assume that is unlikely is just to assume that you’re right without proving it at all. If we knew of 1,000,000 universes, and we knew that only one of them was governed by God, then we could say that God governing this universe is unlikely.

But of course we have absolutely no such knowledge. God may or may not exist; we can say nothing about the probability either way.


The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence. The author concludes Or... we might point our metaphorical telescopes the other way, write articles about how ridiculous the idea is, and tell everyone that since there is no evidence, we refuse to believe it.

The bottom line(in my mind) is not the proof itself. It is the necessity for such proof and the openness of the human heart to receive such an idea.

Edited by Phat, : fixed breakage


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Taq, posted 09-27-2016 12:17 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 6:14 PM Phat has responded
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2016 6:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 09-28-2016 9:35 AM Phat has responded
 Message 259 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 10:20 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28432
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 252 of 277 (791955)
09-27-2016 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-27-2016 4:36 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence.

How is the life of Jesus evidence of anything more than say the life of Don Diego de la Vega?

Phat writes:

The bottom line(in my mind) is not the proof itself. It is the necessity for such proof and the openness of the human heart to receive such an idea.

What does that even mean?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:57 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4405
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 253 of 277 (791956)
09-27-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-27-2016 4:36 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

The bottom line(in my mind) is not the proof itself. It is the necessity for such proof and the openness of the human heart to receive such an idea.

This stuff must mean something to you because you keep saying stuff like it, but I have no idea what. It sounds like some more than usually garbled form of preachiness, that the audience would just nod to without thinking about it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 254 of 277 (791959)
09-27-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Tangle
09-27-2016 6:26 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
You may have a point. I'll take it into consideration.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2016 6:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Tangle, posted 09-28-2016 5:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 255 of 277 (791960)
09-27-2016 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
09-27-2016 6:14 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
jar writes:

How is the life of Jesus evidence of anything more than say the life of Don Diego de la Vega?

What I mean is that the public reaction to the death, burial, and reported resurrection of Jesus is much greater than most others who have died.

Does a reaction count as evidence?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 6:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 09-27-2016 9:15 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 258 by Theodoric, posted 09-28-2016 9:36 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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