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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
jar
Member
Posts: 29472
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 256 of 277 (791961)
09-27-2016 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
09-27-2016 6:57 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

What I mean is that the public reaction to the death, burial, and reported resurrection of Jesus is much greater than most others who have died.

Really? Is there any evidence to support that?

Phat writes:

Does a reaction count as evidence?

It counts as evidence that some people claim to react to the particular assertion; Buddhist to the death of the Buddha, Christians to the death of Jesus; Muslims to the death of Mohammad...

But it does not count as evidence of any deity.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


(1)
Message 257 of 277 (791966)
09-28-2016 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-27-2016 4:36 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence

This is what this yahoo(the writer obviously has some basic problems with logic) has to say about that.
quote:
the historical character, actions, and words of Jesus of Nazareth; his death, and the emptiness of the tomb he was buried in shortly after;

There is no historical evidence for any of this. None. There are the writings included in the bible, nothing else. The writings in the bible are of no value historically to show the historical existence of this character.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:53 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


Message 258 of 277 (791967)
09-28-2016 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
09-27-2016 6:57 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
What I mean is that the public reaction to the death, burial, and reported resurrection of Jesus is much greater than most others who have died.

There was no public reaction at the time. None. If there were there would have been some sort of public record.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7201
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 259 of 277 (791968)
09-28-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
09-27-2016 4:36 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Essentially the counter-argument is that absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence.

What is that a counter-argument to?

All you have done is erect a strawman. No one is saying that deities don't exist. What we are saying is that there is no evidence for any deities, therefore we don't believe that one exists. We are skeptics, not deniers.

The link goes on to explain the life of Jesus as further evidence.

Stories in books have never been evidence.

The bottom line(in my mind) is not the proof itself. It is the necessity for such proof and the openness of the human heart to receive such an idea.

That isn't openness. That is gullibility. Openness is the willingness to allow EVIDENCE to change your mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 4:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 260 of 277 (791975)
09-28-2016 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
09-27-2016 6:55 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

You may have a point.

As you can see, it's not just me.

I'll take it into consideration.

I doubt that you will. When you get into trouble with an argument, you revert to this kind of random religio-waffle.

I was thinking about it in a church today at a funeral. The priest was saying similar stuff. It really made no objective sense, but it had become so normalised that nobody noticed. People get so used to it over the years that they hardly listen to it - it's a rhythm; the ritual is the message, the language is just mood music.

But if you actually listen to the words, they carry no actual meaning.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 09-27-2016 6:55 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 5:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 09-29-2016 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7201
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 261 of 277 (791976)
09-28-2016 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Tangle
09-28-2016 5:13 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Tangle writes:

I was thinking about it in a church today at a funeral. The priest was saying similar stuff. It really made no objective sense, but it had become so normalised that nobody noticed. People get so used to it over the years that they hardly listen to it - it's a rhythm; the ritual is the message, the language is just mood music.

But if you actually listen to the words, they carry no actual meaning.

This is EXACTLY what I have noticed over the years. It was part of what led me to leave the church. I suddenly realized that 99% of the time I wasn't even listening to what the pastor was saying, much less care what he was saying. When I did listen and actually try to make sense of it, I realized that it was just word salad. You can find tons of good examples by reading the lyrics of modern Christian praise songs. It's almost as if it's a Scrabble game where the tiles have things like "Grace of God" or "Kingdom of God" on them. Pastors draw 8 of them, put them in a random order, and then base their sermon on that word salad. It's like listening to someone who just strings a bunch of clichés together:

"Birds of a feather flock together, but it often goes over like a lead balloon. Instead, opposites attract while time heals all wounds."

That's what sermons sound like.

I grew up in a devout Christian family, but I harbor them no ill will. I think they have come to the realization that I am no longer a believer (took them 20 years), and they are actually being cool about it. Mom wanted me to go to church on Mom's Day, and I agreed in 1 second because it was a special day and she rarely asks. During the sermon I really had the urge to ask someone in my family if they can explain what was just said. I suspected that they wouldn't be able to. I suspect that no one would be able to. However, since they are being cool with my whole kitten-eating atheism, I didn't push it. Still has me curious if they could explain what was said, but I suspect it will always remain a curiosity.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Tangle, posted 09-28-2016 5:13 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:42 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 262 of 277 (791990)
09-29-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Tangle
09-28-2016 5:13 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Tangle writes:

the ritual is the message....


Charlie Brown: THAT'S IT!!!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Tangle, posted 09-28-2016 5:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2016 12:26 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 263 of 277 (791991)
09-29-2016 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
09-29-2016 11:58 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
So now that's sorted who we gonna call?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 09-29-2016 11:58 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9908
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 264 of 277 (792015)
09-30-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Tangle
09-29-2016 12:26 PM


Cliches
Tangle writes:

So now that's sorted who we gonna call?

For supernatural, call GHOSTBUSTERS.

For Humor call either Ringo or Charles Schultz

For answers as to why it all sounds like meaningless cliches, try this:

1 Cor 1:19 writes:


For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2016 12:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Tangle, posted 09-30-2016 1:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9908
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 265 of 277 (792016)
09-30-2016 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Taq
09-28-2016 5:33 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
would you say that the Bible itself sounds like meaningless cliches? In general, that is?
I really had the urge to ask someone in my family if they can explain what was just said. I suspected that they wouldn't be able to. I suspect that no one would be able to. However, since they are being cool with my whole kitten-eating atheism, I didn't push it. Still has me curious if they could explain what was said, but I suspect it will always remain a curiosity.
Give me an example of something said that is meaningless and I'll see if I can explain it.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Taq, posted 09-28-2016 5:33 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Taq, posted 09-30-2016 1:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9908
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 266 of 277 (792017)
09-30-2016 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Theodoric
09-28-2016 9:35 AM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Theodoric writes:

There is no historical evidence for any of this. None. There are the writings included in the bible, nothing else. The writings in the bible are of no value historically to show the historical existence of this character.


The article covered this:
The author concludes Or... we might point our metaphorical telescopes the other way, write articles about how ridiculous the idea is, and tell everyone that since there is no evidence, we refuse to believe it.

The whole idea is based on faith. There never was meant to be evidence.

But if you prefer, you can have faith that Donald Trump will make America great again or that there is no such thing as sin and this world will someday suddenly learn how to get along. I would never squash such hope. Why is it that men such as Richard Carrier attempt to spread misinformation and attempt to squash the faith of Christians?
Of course our faith will never be quenched even if they burned every Bible and religious tract on the planet. Christians won't disappear... Teach your children well because some of their friends will always be believers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Theodoric, posted 09-28-2016 9:35 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 273 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2016 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 267 of 277 (792021)
09-30-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Cliches
Phat writes:

For answers as to why it all sounds like meaningless cliches, try this:

Do you really think that meaningless biblical cant, explains meaningless biblical cant?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 268 of 277 (792022)
09-30-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:53 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

Christians won't disappear...


Tell it to Zeus.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by kjsimons, posted 09-30-2016 1:38 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7201
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 269 of 277 (792023)
09-30-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
09-30-2016 12:42 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
Phat writes:

would you say that the Bible itself sounds like meaningless cliches? In general, that is?

I would agree that you can find many examples of meaningless phrases in the Bible.

Give me an example of something said that is meaningless and I'll see if I can explain it.

Here is an example:

"One need not look very far to see examples of discord, hostility and disunity within humanity and even within creation. Culture wars, political wars, theological wars and military wars abound. What, we might ask, is the source of all this hostility? And, more importantly, what is the source of true peace, true unity, true harmony? Paul tells us in Ephesians that Jesus is the one true peace. Jesus IS our peace and the Holy Spirit is the unifier. A new president or policy or military leader or social activist will not bring peace. Only when people accept the one (Jesus) who IS peace, who IS harmony will true unity come. "
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon-topics/holy-spirit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 12:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 09-30-2016 2:23 PM Taq has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 647
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


(1)
Message 270 of 277 (792024)
09-30-2016 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
09-30-2016 1:09 PM


Re: you got some 'splainin to do...
ringo writes:

Tell it to Zeus.

This reminds me of a book by the late Terry Pratchett titled "Small Gods". The gist of it was that the more followers a god has the more powerful they are. The book starts out with a god trying to manifest itself into world and he ends up as a small turtle because he has only one follower. If he loses that one he poofs out of existence. It's a good read!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 09-30-2016 1:09 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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