What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

I have been told by believers about some vague descriptions of Heaven and Hell, and that they are working very, very hard to get into one and to stay out of the other.However, as an unbeliever I have been asked many, many times, "Since you are not a believer, what do you think happens when we die?"The question rarely gets turned around upon the believers. In general, they answer something about "reward", "bliss", "Heaven", "hell", "punishment", or something along those lines, but rarely do any specifics get mentioned or discussed.I am curious what conceptions of heaven and hell believers have, and what are the rationales they use to justify their idea of what heaven and hell are like.I think this should go into Faith and Belief.

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What I would hope for is for us to exist in a joyful spirit like beings, where truth is the norm, and it is a joy knowing everyone. Is heaven free from worry? I don't know. If my buddy goes to hell, I might worry for him.

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I also hope things are easier in heaven, and life would be more enjoyable than here. I also hope to meet up with all of you, in a more relaxed atmosphere, where all these questions we have will be answered.

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So, it seoms to me like you believe that you will think and feel pretty much like you do now. ...which is interesting, considering that you won't have a brain or a body.Are you going to be aware of the passing of time? What will you do for all of eternity if you are aware?

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I think most of us here are thinkers, and that sounds like hell to me, no thoughts, good or bad.

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Actually, Buddists practice meditation in which the idea is to empty one's mind of active thought. Apparently it is extremely peaceful and calming.I think I practice something similar when an over-active mind gives me trouble falling asleep.

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It's going to be very tough for everybody in the afterlife, so you must be prepared. Hell is very painful, of course, and all metaphore of extreme pain are appropiate to it.

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How does one's incorporeal soul feel "pain". We won't have ur bodies or brains, right? What is "feeling" if we don't have bodies?What causes the pain?

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Some atheists complain much about unavoidable socalled natural pains, as if that proves God doesn't exist. And that is fine they make some argument, however they must not cloud the truth that natural pain is insignificant compared to the pain associated with sin, or doing wrong, the pains of hell.

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Ditto the above questions.

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No soul will help another soul in the afterlife, but in marriage two souls are joined as one. Any soul that is not good by more then a half in God's judgement, will be thrown into hell and painfully destroyed.

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So, souls are either destroyed or continue to exist in torment, right? How are souls tormented?

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In the afterlife, you will know the whole truth about everything, and you either like it or you don't, and if you like it, you will be in heaven, and if you don't you will be in hell.

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So, if you have no brain, how can you "know" anything? How can you "like" anything?

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So some will be full of love for God, and some will curse God and hate him and his creation. This hate burns in their soul, and it is extremely painful.

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Ditto the above questions.

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There are a great many women in hell, which causes many muslim women much fear, and so tend to be more religious.

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So, you've been to hell, I take it, and therefore have firsthand knowledge of these many women in hell?

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However I think they're mistaken, I think the reason there are so many women in hell (where one might expect there to be mostly men only because men generally more engage in murder etc.), must be because of femininity, as a quasi religion.

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Uh, and masculinity isn't a quasi-religion in Islam?? The Muslim world greatly values males over females. The males always have many more rights and privileges in Muslim cultures, and in some countries it is only the male children who are taught to read and write and the women are kept intentionally illiterate and dependent, as if they are children, or domestic animals.No, in the Islamic world the cult of the masculine is worshipped openly and shamelessly.But anyway, you haven't aswered my question of what heaven is like.

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Yes in principle the same goes for masculinity, but in my experience men don't spend half as much time on masculinity, as women do on femininity.

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How do you mean? How do women spend so much time on femininity compared to how much time men spend on masculinity?I mean, it would seem that in many Islamic countries, both the mother and the father of sons dote and concentrate on the masculine by promoting him and telling him how important he is, and they discount the importance of any daughters they might have by not being interested in promoting their education or careers.

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And I'm not saying that either femininity or masculinity are wrong, just that some go to extremes, displacing religion proper.

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How do women do this? How is it that Islamic culture does not glorify masculinity to the point of displacing religion?Or, is Islam a intrinsically masculinity-worshipping religion, so any time femininity is focused on at all, you think that it is too much?

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Anyway, if there wasn't the revealed knowledge that many women are in hell,

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Tell me, how do you know this?

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Your questions are of course annoyingly atheistic /
materialistic.

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That means you don't know the answers to them right?

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Could you please tell me the size, weight, accelleration, vector of the decision of some despot to kill some harmless people?

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I wasn't aware that "descisions" have weights, sizes, accelerations, or vectors.

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You know, I love this question you asked, your OP. I have so much to tell you, but its hard through the internet.

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Thanks!

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We exist in our body, soul, and spirit. When you become born again through Jesus, salvation, and all the crazy Jesus freak stuff, it means that your spirit is born at that point.

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From that moment, it is a growing process. Your spirit starts to grow, and you start to do things of the spirit more than things of the body/soul. So you start to get a feeling of what it is to exist in spirit only, without your body or brain.

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How do you "feel" without a body or brain?

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It is a wonderful feeling. It's a little taste of heaven here on earth. I wish I could jsut give you that feeling for a second.

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But wouldn't I need my body and brain to feel it?

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I to often wonder that very thought. Because no matter how many things I wish to do, eventually I would run out of time, and be bored.

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But what if heaven existed in the 4th demension (or beyond) where there is no time. I have had visions of what it looks like. I seen the earth, it was a globe, but I could see all the countries.

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You have had visions in 4 dimensions? It's my understanding that humans are incapable of visualizing objects in more than 3 dimensions.

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If there is no time, how can we get bored? How can we relate to what we don't know? Like Q from the space time continuum in Star Trek.

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The heavens may be infinate, which would leave us with plenty to do.
God does promise us treasures in heaven, and that we will be at peace, and happy. I don't understand the mechanics of it, but maybe the joy you get from riding your horse magnified by a thousand, sprinkled with the perfect love that only God could provide, might be what it's like.

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Even the aching, tired muscles and the saddle sores? I'd have those too?

Let's lobotomize your frotal lobes and see how well your mind does, lamby-toes.

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I was complimenting you (I just got through ogling your photo--I hope you don't mind).

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Of course I don't mind. Ogle away.

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In my view, mind-stuff was released during the Big Bang and has been drifting through the universe ever since. Whenever it finds a sufficiently developed brain, it attaches itself to it. Whenever the host dies, the mindstuff is released again and floats around in the universe (this is called, traditionally, "heaven").

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This seems to be the only explanation for our experiences.

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LOL!Alrighty then.

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My thoughts on this subject come from feeling my soul. I think there's something inside me that isn't physical and I can feel it.

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How do you feel something that isn't physical with a body which is equipped to feeling only physical sensation, as far as we have ever been able to detect and demonstrate?

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It doesn't seem like my mind is playing tricks on me.

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It never seems like one's mind is playing tricks on us, though, does it? At least, if the "trick" is successful.If your mind were playing tricks on you, you wouldn't know, by definition.The thing is, what kind of evidence would you accept which would convince you that your mind actually IS playing tricks on you?

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I think you body is required for your soul to develop and interact with others. I think as your body grows your soul grows, and your mind (not brain) is the connection between them.

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Where does the mind come from, if not the brain?

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Other ideas come from the teachings of Jesus. I think if you weren't very intellegent or didn't think deeply about afterlives and such, but you followed the teachings of Jesus, then your afterlife would be heavenly.

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Huh, Jesus likes superficial thinking, dumb people best.I'd like to point out to everyone that I did NOT bring this up.Catholic Scientist said it first.

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I wouldn't call them wicked, do all the drugs and sex that you want just realize that they will be gone and you should suplement those feelings with ones that can be worth something in the afterlife. And also realize that the more sex and drugs you do the more you'll rely on them for happiness and take time away from the better things.

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It's really too bad that the old religions of the fertility Goddesses got crushed by the anti-pleasure, anti-female, persecutorial, guilt- and shame-promoting Patriarchal God religions.Those lost religions celebrated the Goddess given pleasures of life instead of devaluing and degrading them.

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Do you not believe that things exist which are not detect/demonstrate-able?

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I don't know if they exist or not. There's no way to know.

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Also, I think the soul IS the equipment that allows the body to feel non-physical sensations.

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Well sure, you can think that, but can you demonstrate it?I don't think you can, so why should I share your belief? Why should anyone?

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When I'm afraid of the dark and then I realize that nothing is there, I feel like my mind played a trick on me.

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"When I believe in a soul without evidence, and I never allow myself to consider the possibility that nothing is there, I never feel like my mind played a trick on me."

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Also, when I use conscious expanding drugs, some mind tricks become apparent.

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Did you know that intense religious feelings in humans can be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain, just like smells, visions, body movements and other emotions?Now, if we were to do an experiment in which we put an electrode in that part of the brain of a person without their knowing it, and we stimulated it, would they realize that the "soul feelings" they were experiencing were induuced? Or, would they simply have a strong religious experience and be convinced that they are connected to the divine?How can a person tell the difference between a real religious experience in which they connect with the divine and a fake one that they self-induce?To self delude and rationalize is to be human.

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As far as the my soul is concerned...any, do you have some of that evidence?

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Well, the above is a good start.

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It comes from the brain AND the soul, its a connection between the two.

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We can detect the brain, and demonstrate many of it's effects readily. We can certainly demonstrate that it exists, and that is has a huge effect upon behavior.Can you demonstrate the soul, and demonstrate any effects it has?Why should I believe in the existence something nobody has ever been able to demonstrate, especially when we have an existing organ, the brain and cns, which seems to be capable of producing all the sensations we feel?

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I think you're wrong about Jesus. His teachings were about deep emotional and intellectual morals that were far from the 'surface' of this physical existance.

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OK, but...

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Could you please reiterate you the point you were making with these statements?

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You said:

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I think if you weren't very intellegent or didn't think deeply about afterlives and such, but you followed the teachings of Jesus, then your afterlife would be heavenly.

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The "heavenly" reward goes to shallow thinking, dumb people.

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Physical pleasures are useless in the long run. Post-death, i mean.

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No, you are completely wrong.The Goddess will be very angry at you for wasting all of the time she gave you on this Earth to give and receive pleasure of all kinds.Those who live a life of needless, stingy self-denial will be punished for not using the gifts the Goddess so generously bestowed upon them.The worst punishment will be reserved for those followers of religions that degrade and devalue women.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-11-2005 09:27 AM

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In reality I'm not sure that you can definitively say that it is the brain that has a huge impact on behaviour.

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Well, in science we cannot say anything with 100% accuracy but it is true that the idea of the brain being largely responsible for thought, perception, and behavior in humans is a very well-supported idea in Neuroscience, Developmental Psychology and Cognitive Psychology.

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I think that quite possibly the brain is just a super computer that operates on an instinctive basis (breathing, hunger etc) and that there is something outside the physical that controls judgement and behaviour.

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This is demonstrably not true.Damage to the brain can affect people's entire personalities, for example, essentially turning them into different people. People can also lose the ability to feel love and affection, or lose the ability to control their angry impulses.A famous example is Phineas Gage:

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One thing that I have found as I get older is that there is some part of me that isn't ageing the way the rest of me is. I find that when I look out at the world I'm still the same person that I was years ago and yet I am who I am today. There is in my view a part of us, that is just us, that is outside of time. I'm still the same person I was 20 or even 40 years ago. My 86 year old mother tells me that inside she is still that young mother raising her babies.

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OK, but nothing about this feeling that you have suggests that the brain could not be responsible.

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Another place where I think this can be demonstrated is in our dreams. Think about the last dream you can remember. How old were you in that dream? My experience is that in my dreams I just am. I'm not any age and certainly not the age I am now.

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Again, this is interesting but in what way do you think it is impossible or unlikely that the brain alone is responsible for this?

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For sake of argument let's assume that I was right, and the brain itself just operates like a computer with the mind which is external to our physical nature, controlling the inputs for the things that are done by impulse.

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It would make some sense that if the brain malfunctions due to physical damage or some mental disease, then any inputs would be scrambled as well. It would be like flying a fly by wire airplane. You can put in an input to bank left, but a computer malfunction could cause the plane to bank right.

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Well, this might be the case but the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is the one which does not invoke an undetectable "spirit" or what have you that you are suggesting.We could also say that aliens, or the spirits of our ancestors, or our chakras are influencing and guiding our minds seperately from our bodies.If I stick a icepick into the same part of your brain that was damaged in Phineas Gage, I predict that we would see similar behavioral and temperament changes as he and other people experienced.The problem you have is that your explanation doesn't make any predictions that we cantest, and it is not based upon any verifiable evidence.

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Now, if you go tampering with the brain and try to induce a religious experience I think it would seem very real. I don’t think the person would be able to tell the difference. Smells, visions, body movements and other emotions could stimulate intense religious feelings as well.

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Exactly.

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I still don’t think that this rules out that other, lets say ‘true’, religious experiences are cause by the soul.

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No, of course it doesn't.The problem is, though, how does anyone ever tell the difference between a "true" religious experience and a self-induced one?

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You would say that what I call ‘true’ religious experiences are a result of self-delusion, to which I would say that I am convinced that they are not delusions.

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Actually, I would not at all say that all religious experiences are a result of self-delusion.I would say that there is no way of knowing if they are real or delusion.Add to that our ability to consistently predict the outcome of what happens when we stimulate the "religious experience" part of the brain in various people, and our ability to consistently predict the outcome of what happens when there is damage to similar parts of the brain in various people.If we damaged that "religious experience" part of the brain, the person would no longer be able to experience religious feelings.Does that mean he has lost his religion? Does that mean his religion doesn't exist?

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And then you would say that being deluded means that you don’t think you really are deluded, and then I say yeah, I could be all wrong and actually be deluded, but I still think I ‘know’ that I’m not, so I guess there is no way for me to find out, and I’m gonna go with my gut on this one.

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See, I think it's really not a good idea to "go with my gut" when it comes to the brain.The brain, especially WRT determining fantasy from reality, is typically really, really easily fooled. It is most easily fooled when certain factors are in place, such as:1) strong cultural or group reinforcement to believe something with no rational basis,2) there is a desire to explain something mysterious or unknown,3) the individual has a strong desire for a particular feeling or outcome to be "true".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2005 11:46 PM

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I think that it is up to the individual. Some people think they are having religious experiences all the time ('God brought us here today'......). Some think their religous experience is a delusion. Some feel nothing, some feel a little, some feel a lot.

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But if one is deluded, then by definition, one doesn't know one is being deluded, right?Otherwise, it wouldn't be a delusion.So, depending on the individual to tell reality from delusion is not at all useful.

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You just gotta decide for yourself if it is real or not.

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But the nature of delusion is that you decide that something is real when it isn't.There is no way to tell the difference when you are using only internal, subjective evaluation rather than independent, outside verification of some kind.

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And if someone claims to have had a religous experience and you don't believe them, so what?

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Well, right now we have a President who says that he is an agent of God and that he is doing what God tells him to do. Tens of thousands of people have died because of what Bush has done in part because he believes that he is on a mission from God to "spread democracy" to Iraq.The 9/11 bombers believed that they were also doing God's will.I'd say that this affects me, and everyone.

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A baseball was flying towards my head and at the last second I saw it and ducked. God tapped me on the shoulder and saved me, see he's really really real. Yeah right. Just as lame is, I used the force and saw it comming before I saw it comming. How about my reflexes kicked in that have naturally evolved and nothing extraordinary happened.

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Or, I made a touchdown, now I'm going to bend down and thank God, or I got a life-saving operation and it was a miracle.

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While we're speculating..., If we damaged that "religious experience" part of the brain and the person can still experience religious feelings, then that would suggest that the feelings can come from somewhere else as well, perhaps the soul.

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Or perhaps another part of the brain. This is why people can recover from strokes and get better. The brain compensates.But hey, if we were able to demonstrate through brain lesioning that there was a very specific "religious experience" part of the brain, and that we never observed the recovery of the ability to feel religious experiences in a person who had sustained damage to that part, would you ever consider that religious experience is physical?

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I must not be typical. I can easily determine fantasy from reality. What kind of fantasies are you talking about, besides religious experiences, that easily fool the brain?

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How do you do this, though?Do you withold judgement until you get confirming evidence?Do you see an optical illusion and never see the illusion?Were you convinced by all of the forced perspective shots in Lord of the Rings or were you able to tell that John Reis Davies who played Gimli is actually taller than most of the other actors?Have you ever construced a false memory?

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Definately. Alot of people believe way too much without even thinking about it. I'd recommend the same remedy that Bill Hicks did: a psychedelic experience. "It makes you realize that everything you've learned is in fact learned and not neccessarily true."

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Right.And religious experience is no different.