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Author Topic:   What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 123 of 148 (641041)
11-15-2011 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by IamJoseph
11-15-2011 6:46 PM


Re: THE POWER OF GENESIS.
Humans are made of the dust of the earth - which includes iron, phosperous, zinc, water, magnesium, quarks and what cannot be seen by the naked eye.
...that interpretation describes all matter, everywhere.
Especially when you include "quarks." By that interpretation, stars and mice and black holes and oceans and hydrogen clouds and galactic clusters are all made of the "dust of the Earth."
Your interpretation is so broad that it's useless. You might as well substitute "dust of the Earth" with "stuff." It doesn't add to any understanding at all, because it would still be just as valid if human beings were made up of antimatter or sea water or stone or air or jello.
Amusingly, a normal interpretation of the word "dust" would result in the Bible stating the opposite of truth - most house dust is, in fact, shed skin cells, meaning the dust of the Earth is actually made of people, as opposed to the other way around.
Not to mention the fact that the human body is mostly made of water, which is exactly the opposite of what one usually means when talking about dust.
Except of course when you're using overly-broad interpretations to widen that round hole until it can fit the square peg. And the triangle peg. And all the other pegs, at once. You know, apologetics.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 6:46 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 7:54 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 126 of 148 (641044)
11-15-2011 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by IamJoseph
11-15-2011 7:54 PM


Re: THE POWER OF GENESIS.
It depends whether the stat is correct or false. While the life forms on earth are made of the components of this earth is valid, we can say similarly that the universe is made of the universe components; the latter only validates the former, as opposed negating it. Thus it is not so broad as to make the statement non-credible or exaggerated. It is a valid statement.
Of course it's valid. The validity of the statement isn't the problem.
The problem is that it's meaningless, like saying "People are made from stuff."
There's no way people could actually exist, even in imagination fairy-tale land, that would not validate that statement. If people were actually made out of moon dust or random gas from Jupiter or bits from the rings of Saturn or ice cream, absolutely all of those would equally satisfy the interpretation of "dust of the Earth" you're applying.
The definition is so broad that it fits everything. Airplanes are made of the "dust of the Earth," as are computers and fish and birds and asteroids and planets and Suns and everything else made from baryonic matter, whether it has any relation to "Earth" or not.
If you used that interpretation to explain to a person what people were made of, they wouldn't understand the composition of human beings any more than before you explained it. It;s word salad. it's meaningless. You;ve widened the aperture of the definition until it;s so wide that it fits everything, and so by using it as part of an explanation you actually explain nothing.
If an explanation doesn't tell you what a thing is not made of, then it cannot possibly tell you what it is made of either.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 7:54 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 11-15-2011 8:18 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 133 of 148 (641124)
11-16-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
11-16-2011 4:26 PM


Re: If thats all there is, my friend...
Shorter and less important, too.
Why is life "less important" without considering an afterlife?
I'd actually consider this life to be more important in the absence of any other. After all, what's a little suffering in this world if it's only temporary and you get an eternity of joy afterwards? Nothing minimizes the importance of this life more than that.
If this is the only life we get, it's more important to work to minimize suffering and improve its quality for everyone.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 11-16-2011 4:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 146 of 148 (649111)
01-20-2012 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
01-20-2012 12:39 PM


Re: If thats all there is, my friend...
Cant some experiences be real to us even if they were imagined?
Of course they can.
The characters of many fiction novels are far more "real" to me than many historical figures who actually existed. Fictional stories have had a significant real effect on my moral opinions, for example. The names we use for days and months originally stemmed from the names of utterly fictional deities, for another.
Even Jesus had a significant real impact on me, and continues to do so, because Christianity impacts me on an almost daily basis even though I no longer believe it to be factually accurate.
But there's a significant difference between that sort of reality and believing that fantasy characters actually existed in real life. Some of Jesus teachings can still be perfectly valid and useful in real life even if Jesus (as depicted in the Bible) never actually existed. "Thou shalt not commit murder" is a pretty good rule even though Yahweh is an imaginary character.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 01-20-2012 12:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
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