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Author Topic:   A morality discussion (Neutralmind, Crashfrog, and Chiroptera only)
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 31 of 41 (403320)
06-01-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Chiroptera
05-31-2007 9:35 PM


Well, I can't speak for most people, but I do this. So do most of the people that I know personally.

Well, so do most of the people I know personally. That's because I don't hang out with people I think are irresponsible idiots. Which is most of the people.

For me, it's just knowing that I've helped someone is it's own reward. If you don't feel the same way, then I guess that there is no gain for you.

Look, can we please stop playing games? I already said I feel exactly the same way. The point is, if I train myself to not care about others so much it will help me. I wouldn't have to think about "oh, I hope she wasn't offended about what I said" " I wonder how he's doing now after that surgery" " damn, it was too bad he didn't get that work he wanted"
Also, I wouldn't be wasting time helping others whenever it's not convenient.

I'd just care about me and think about my own situation and decisions more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Chiroptera, posted 05-31-2007 9:35 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:10 PM Neutralmind has responded

    
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 32 of 41 (403321)
06-01-2007 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 8:43 PM


Re: Back again
You know I wasn't asking would you help him. I was asking if people in general would help you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 8:43 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 33 of 41 (403325)
06-01-2007 9:08 PM


In other words
Okay, let me put this all in another way. What's the negative side of being an irresponsible idiot who mostly just cares for himself?

Edited by Neutralmind, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:18 PM Neutralmind has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 34 of 41 (403326)
06-01-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Neutralmind
06-01-2007 9:01 PM


Look, can we please stop playing games?

I am not the one playing games. You are the one asking the same question over and over again, even though I keep giving you the same answer.

You keep asking why shouldn't you stop emphathizing with people. My answer is that there isn't a reason why you shouldn't stop. Now if you're not playing games, then there is no need to ask this exact same question over again.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:01 PM Neutralmind has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:17 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 35 of 41 (403329)
06-01-2007 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 9:10 PM


Ok, so can you tell me it why it is good to emphatise with people? So they will emphatise back??... Say, people you'll never see again, why emphatise, why help them?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:10 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:20 PM Neutralmind has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 36 of 41 (403330)
06-01-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Neutralmind
06-01-2007 9:08 PM


Re: In other words
Oh, good god almighty!

Okay, one more time, and then I'm done with this asinine conversation!

The downsides to self-centered behavior:

(1) The self-centered person will have feelings of guilt, shame, or lack of fullfillment that will be unpleasant.

(2) Other people will notice the person's self-centeredness and act accordingly, not doing any special favors and maybe even punishing the person in some way.

Now, if these can be avoided, or ignored, or in some way the person doesn't feel that these are serious problems, then there is no downside to self-centered behavior.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:08 PM Neutralmind has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:21 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 37 of 41 (403331)
06-01-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Neutralmind
06-01-2007 9:17 PM


Okay, good, a different question!

Say, people you'll never see again, why emphatise, why help them?

It's just what I do. There is no other reason I do it other than it makes me feel better about myself.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:17 PM Neutralmind has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:29 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 38 of 41 (403332)
06-01-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 9:18 PM


Re: In other words
Ok, thanks. That was a clear answer. Just if you could be a little less condensending in the future :frazzled:
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:18 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 39 of 41 (403335)
06-01-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 9:20 PM


It's just what I do. There is no other reason I do it other than it makes me feel better about myself.

Okay, if you still have the patience. I'd like to stop on this for a moment. Now, I too get this feeling (bet a lot of people get). But then, why do we get it? Is it even important?

And then, it makes us feel good. Which means we are doing it for selfish reasons. Does this make it less good? Does it even matter, is it just the act that matters not the intent? (intent being that we get a reward, good feeling out of it)

Edited by Neutralmind, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:20 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:55 PM Neutralmind has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 40 of 41 (403340)
06-01-2007 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Neutralmind
06-01-2007 9:29 PM


if you still have the patience

No problem, as long as we are moving along now.

-

But then, why do we get it? Is it even important?

Good question. I think it was answered before (and on several other threads), but maybe I can try to make it a little bit clearer.

What I think is that empathy, or at least a disposition toward empathy, is part of the innate mental wiring in our heads. Humans evolved from social species, and a feeling of empathy, the ability to put oneself in another's place and share their joy and their pain, would obviously do a lot to grease the social wheels.

Empathy and altruism would help the tribe survive better. It has been shown that that a population of altruists may survive better and have a reproductive advantage over a population of egoists. The key here is that everyone has this same tendency toward altruism (perhaps, like in the case of humans, mediated by feelings of empathy). Your empathy helps others survive, and since they will share your disposition toward altruism, and while tribes of egoists don't survive as well, then the next generation will have more altruists and fewer egoists. And of course you benefit from altruism as well, since your fellow tribe members altruism is helping you.

Of course, it has been shown through mathematical models that a population of pure altruists is unstable -- a single egoist in that population will have a reproductive advantage. However, pure altruists don't exist in real-life. In real life, altruistic individuals have the ability to notice egoists and to take action against them, or at least not give them the benefit of their altruistic behavior. The outrage you expressed over people you notice taking advantage of helpful people might be an expression of this.

-

And then, it makes us feel good. Which means we are doing it for selfish reasons.

That could be. I might be wrong, but all altruism that I know of is done either because the person feels good about it, or the person will feel worse if she doesn't do it. It might very well be that, strictly speaking, there is no such thing as true altruism -- we always get something out of it, even if it is an emotional high or the avoidance of emotional pain.

However, it seems to be the case that people encourage other people to feel good about being selfless, and that the good feelings that one feels when one does the "right thing" is itself considered a virtue. So, I guess someone who behaves "selflessly" is really being selfish since she is actually striving for a "good feeling". On the other hand, other people think it is admirable that she does feel good when she is being selfless.

So, maybe it is a bit complicated after all.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Neutralmind, posted 06-01-2007 9:29 PM Neutralmind has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Neutralmind, posted 06-02-2007 8:52 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 3685 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 41 of 41 (403383)
06-02-2007 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Chiroptera
06-01-2007 9:55 PM


However, it seems to be the case that people encourage other people to feel good about being selfless, and that the good feelings that one feels when one does the "right thing" is itself considered a virtue. So, I guess someone who behaves "selflessly" is really being selfish since she is actually striving for a "good feeling". On the other hand, other people think it is admirable that she does feel good when she is being selfless.

Hahha, this is probably the most confusing (yet good) way I've ever seen anyone put this :D
Selfless? Selfish? Who knows. But yeah, I do get your point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2007 9:55 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

    
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