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Author Topic:   Links for the Creation/Evolution Controversy (not a debate topic)
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3740
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 1 of 106 (490366)
12-04-2008 1:33 AM


If you look through the index of the "Links and Information" forum you will find a hoard of micro-topics.

As I interpret it's purpose, "L&I" is a place to put various essentially bare links. It is NOT a forum for debating.

The non-admin mode will be dumping a link message in here soon. Perhaps others would like to do the same. We might even go so far as to try to gather past topic's links to here.

PLEASE PUT A GOOD SUBTITLE ON YOUR MESSAGE. THEN THE TOPIC'S INDEX WILL SERVE AS A TABLE OF CONTENTS TO FIND SAID LINKS.

AS ALWAYS, THIS TOPIC AND THIS FORUM IS NOT A PLACE FOR DEBATE. IF YOU FIND SOMETHING HERE YOU WISH TO DEBATE, FIND A SUITABLE TOPIC FOR SUCH, OR PROPOSE A NEW ONE.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Admin, : Shorten Title

Edited by Admin, : Modify title.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add "(not a debate topic)" to topic title


Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-04-2014 11:29 AM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3471
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 2 of 106 (490367)
12-04-2008 1:43 AM


Film critic Roger Ebert comments on Ben Stein's "Expelled:"
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2008/12/win_ben_steins_mind.html

Found via Panda's Thumb, which in turn found it via Bad Astronomy.

Probably everything you'll ever need to rebut any claims that it is a quality film.

Do not debate this in this topic. If you wish to debate it, please see the guidlines in message 1.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added the "Probably" sentence.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for — but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


    
Deftil
Member (Idle past 1807 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 3 of 106 (490492)
12-05-2008 5:35 AM


The TalkOrigins Archive - Resources for Defending Evolution
The TalkOrigins Archive

http://www.talkorigins.org/

from the site:

Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins. Most discussions in the newsgroup center on the creation/evolution controversy, but other topics of discussion include the origin of life, geology, biology, catastrophism, cosmology and theology.

The TalkOrigins Archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another. The primary reason for this archive's existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences.

Practically anything you could need to defend evolution and rebut relevant ID and creationist claims can be found here. I usually just click on Search the Archive to search for whatever specific material I need. Lots of quality resources there including detailed descriptions of all the different lines of evidence that support evolution, lists of documented speciation events, lists of responses to specific ID and creationst claims, and more.

Edited by Deftil, : No reason given.

Edited by Deftil, : No reason given.


    
Deftil
Member (Idle past 1807 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 4 of 106 (490660)
12-06-2008 11:03 PM


Creation & Intelligent Design Watch
Creation & Intelligent Design Watch
Hosted by the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (aka The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry)
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/index.html

Many articles relevant to the the creation/ evolution debate and ID which are helpful for defending evolution and pointing out flaws in creation and ID reasoning. Also has a list of relevant books, and links to other relevant sites.

The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry encourages the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminates factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public. It also promotes science and scientific inquiry, critical thinking, science education, and the use of reason in examining important issues. To carry out these objectives the Committee:

  1. Maintains a network of people interested in critically examining paranormal, fringe science, and other claims, and in contributing to consumer education
  2. Prepares bibliographies of published materials that carefully examine such claims
  3. Encourages research by objective and impartial inquiry in areas where it is needed
  4. Convenes conferences and meetings
  5. Publishes articles that examine claims of the paranormal
  6. Does not reject claims on a priori grounds, antecedent to inquiry, but examines them objectively and carefully

The Committee is a nonprofit scientific and educational organization, started in 1976. The Skeptical Inquirer is its official journal.

Some of the founding members of CSI include scientists, academics, and science writers such as Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Philip Klass, Paul Kurtz, Ray Hyman, James Randi, Martin Gardner, Sidney Hook, and others. A list of CSI fellows is published in every issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine.


    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 5 of 106 (491088)
12-11-2008 3:20 PM


Flatfish Evolution and Transitionals
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/07/09/dawn-of-the-picasso-fish/

Discusses the use of flatfish as evidence against evolution in Darwin's time and the discovery of transitionals.


  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3471
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 6 of 106 (491260)
12-13-2008 1:29 AM


Interview with Judge Jones in PLoS Genetics
Taken to School: An Interview with the Honorable Judge John E. Jones, III

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1000297

-----

I was alerted to this by Carol at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionversuscreationism/ (the precursor of ). Even if you never post there, it may well be worth being a member just to get Carol's tidbits. Just be sure you're set up to receive the messages via e-mail.

From Carol's message there:

quote:
Dear Friends of NCSE,

Judge Jones, who presided over Kitzmiller v. Dover, is interviewed in PLoS
Genetics. The fourth issue of Evolution: Education and Outreach is now
available. And Roger Ebert offers his opinion about Expelled.

JUDGE JONES IN PLOS GENETICS

Judge John E. Jones III, who presided over the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial,
was interviewed by Jane Gitschier for PLoS Genetics. After recounting his
legal career and sketching the legal history of the creationism/evolution
controversy, Jones talked about the trial itself. Describing the expert
testimony he heard, Jones commented, "I will always remember Ken Miller's
testimony in the sense that he did A-Z evolution. And then got into
intelligent design. And having laid the foundation with the description of
evolution, got into why intelligent design doesn't work as science, to the
point where it is predominantly a religious concept." He added, "But Ken
Miller went into the immune system, the blood clotting cascade, and the
bacterial flagellum -- all three are held out by intelligent design
proponents as irreducibly complex, and in effect, having no precursors. He
[Miller] knocked that down, I thought, quite effectively -- so
comprehensively and so well. By the time Miller was done testifying, over
the span of a couple of days, the defendants were really already in the hole."

The expert witnesses for the defense were less impressive to
Jones: "Another remarkable moment on the science side was Michael Behe,
who was the lead witness for the defendants, and a very amiable fellow, as
was Ken Miller, but unlike Miller, in my view, Professor Behe did not
distinguish himself. He did not hold up well on cross-examination." And
the school board witnesses for the defense, whom Jones lambasted in his
decision, he described as "dreadful witnesses ... hence the description
'breathtaking inanity' and 'mendacity.' In my view, they clearly lied
under oath. They made a very poor account of themselves. They could not
explain why they did what they did. They really didn't even know what
intelligent design was. It was quite clear to me that they viewed
intelligent design as a method to get creationism into the public school
classroom. They were unfortunate and troublesome witnesses. Simply
remarkable, in that sense."

Noting that the plaintiffs and defendants both asked for a ruling on the
question of whether "intelligent design" constitutes science, Jones said,
"if you're going to measure the effect of a particular policy, in this case
juxtaposing intelligent design with evolution, on the intended recipients,
you have to delve into what the policy is about. What was it about? It
was about intelligent design. And to try to determine the effect on the
recipients you have to determine what does that concept or phrase stand
for? Hence, we got into a search and examination of what exactly does ID
say, what is its basis, what are its scientific bona fides or lack
thereof. That opens the door for a determination of whether ID is in fact
science. And that is what that part of the opinion was. ... I wrote about
whether ID, as presented to me, in that courtroom from September to
November of 2005, was science, and I said it was not. That it was the
progeny, the successor to creationism and creation science. That it was
dressed-up creationism."

Looking forward, Jones expressed uncertainty about the long-term effect of
the Kitzmiller decision, commenting, "This is speculation on my part -- I
don't think that the concept of ID itself has a lot of vitality going
forward. The Dover trial discredited that thing that is ID. To the extent
that I follow it -- I'm curious about it, but it doesn't go any further
than that -- the likely tack going forward is something like teach the
controversy, talk about the alleged flaws and gaps in the theory of
evolution and go to that place first." He noted that creationists in both
Texas and Louisiana seem to be taking such a tack. And, he noted, there is
no prospect of the creationism/evolution controversy subsiding any time
soon: "They gave me the last word in 'Judgment Day' [a NOVA program on the
trial] and I said this is not something that will be settled in my time or
even in my grandchildren's lifetimes. It's an enduring, quintessentially
American, dispute."


If someone has track of a good "Intelligent Design" topic to plug this into, please do such.

"LINKS AND INFORMATION" IS NOT A DEBATE FORUM - ANY DEBATE OF THIS MATERIAL SHOULD HAPPEN ELSEWHERE.

Moose

ADDED BY EDIT: OK, I found a relevant topic place for it.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Had an "in in" in the subtitle.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above.


    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 106 (491352)
12-14-2008 3:43 PM


Left Handed from Space
http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/research/Meteorites_delivered_the_seeds_of_Earths_left-hand_life.asp

This page describes how there is a preponderance of left handed amino acids in meteorites. It also discusses experiments where this can be transferred to other amino acids.

It also has this comment:

quote:
With the exception of a few right-handed amino acid-based bacteria, left-handed "L-amino acids" dominate on earth.

Does anyone know more about this?


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2008 10:42 PM NosyNed has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 8 of 106 (491363)
12-14-2008 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
12-14-2008 3:43 PM


Re: Left Handed from Space
Did not find any with a quick google (kept turning up different versions of the same article).

Did find link of interest this Confirmed - Genetic Material In Meteorites Is Extraterrestrial In Origin:

quote:
The materials they have found include the molecules uracil and xanthine, which are precursors to the molecules that make up DNA and RNA, and are known as nucleobases. The team discovered the molecules in rock fragments of the Murchison meteorite, which crashed in Australia in 1969.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 12-14-2008 3:43 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NosyNed, posted 12-14-2008 10:56 PM RAZD has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 9 of 106 (491365)
12-14-2008 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
12-14-2008 10:42 PM


quick google
I messed around for awhile too.

I'm becoming suspicious about the truthiness of that bit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2008 10:42 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 10 of 106 (491407)
12-15-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
12-14-2008 10:56 PM


bingo
Found some more interesting articles

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article253.html

Talks about measuring the age of organic matter by the ratio of D and L amino acids (over time molecules convert L to D and D to L and end up in equilibrium ...)

http://www.rockefeller.edu/pubinfo/news_notes/rus_012805_h.php

Talks about a Potassium filter that needs D and L amino acids but uses glycerin as an ambidextrous one instead: "Glycine’s being the only natural amino acid that can play this role helps explain why the potassium ion filters of all organisms are identical."

the google "clip" on this site is intriguing, but requires AAAS sign in to access the article (abstract doesn't mention it)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/295/5563/2205?ck=nck
"But many bacteria and fungi can turn to an alternative system that allows ... it a specific left- or right-handed amino acid or some other compound--to a ..."

and I love these little guys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetotactic_bacteria
biological compass bacteria?

FINALLY:

Novel neurotransmitter overturns laws of biology, offers potential for stroke treatment

quote:
The neurotransmitter is an amino acid called D-serine. It's odd, Snyder says, because it differs in structure from any known molecule in its class found in mammals and other higher animals. D-serine is what chemists call a right handed amino acid. Normally, amino acids have atoms that extend from the left side of the molecule. These L-amino acids, as they're called, are the rule in vertebrates, whose biochemistry is set up to deal with these forms.

Some primitive organisms, however, notably bacteria, have a mixture of both L-amino acids and their mirror images called D-amino acids. But to find a D-amino acid in humans, Snyder says, "is unprecedented;" it's the equivalent of finding a Pterodactyl in your local pet shop.

Moreover, unlike dopamine, serotonin or other traditional nerve transmitters, D-serine isn't secreted at nerve cell endings in the brain. Instead, it comes from adjacent cells called astrocytes, which enclose nerve cells in the brain's gray matter like a glove.

The current study adds conclusive evidence to the idea that D-serine -- released from astrocytes -- activates receptors on key nerve cells in the brain. Activating these receptors, called NMDA receptors, has long been linked with learning, memory and higher thought. NMDA receptors are also known culprits in stroke damage in the brain, and have become a focus for anti-stroke research.


So they do exist, and D-amino acids are used (a) by some bacteria and (b) (at least one anyway) by humans.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NosyNed, posted 12-14-2008 10:56 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3740
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 11 of 106 (491470)
12-16-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
12-15-2008 6:30 PM


This is turning into a debate topic
The most recent chain of links/discussion should go to the Proposed New Topics forum.

This forum and topic is intended as a catch-all for (more or less bare) misc. links.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2008 6:30 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 106 (491819)
12-21-2008 2:40 PM


The Math of Fitness Landscapes
http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2008/12/fitness_landscapes_evolution_a.php

This site has an interesting (and intricate) discussion of fitness landscapes.

It offers some additional discussion of some IDists mathematics regarding fitness landscapes too.

quote:
The main fitness-landscape argument used by creationists against evolution is based on Dembski's No Free Lunch work. NFL is a family of theorems which (stated informally) says: averaged over all possible fitness landscapes, no search algorithm can possibly do better than a random walk.

...

quote:

Evolution works in landscapes with structure. Another way of putting that is that evolution works in landscapes where the result of a search step provides feedback about the structure of the landscape. But the key takeaway here is that NFL doesn't provide any meaningful rebuttal to information, because we don't expect evolutionary search to work in all possible landscapes!

quote:
Lately, Dembski and friends have been taking a new tack, which involves talking about "smuggling information". They've been using the NFL argument for years, but they've run into a rather serious problem: evolution works.

In response (there are two)

quote:
The first one is, in a word, "Duh!". That is, of course there's information about the landscape in the system. As I discussed above, there's no such thing as a search algorithm that works on all landscapes, but for landscapes with particular properties, there are search algorithms that are highly successful. If you look at it from an information-theoretic viewpoint, any search algorithm which can successfully operate in a particular search space encodes information about the space into its structure. From the viewpoint of math, this is just totally, blindingly obvious.

And it's not a problem for biological evolution. Biological evolution is based on mutation, reproduction, and differential success. That is, it's a process where you have a population of reproducing individuals, where the children are slightly different from the parents. Some of the children survive and reproduce, and some don't. This process clearly only works within a particular kind of search space; that is, a search space where the survival to reproduction of a subset of the population indicates that that subset of the population has a higher fitness value.

Evolution, modeled as a search, requires certain properties in its search space for it to work. The information smuggling argument basically claims that that means that it can't work. But every successful search algorithm has certain requirements for he search-space in which it operates. By the arguments of Demski and friends, there is no such thing as a successful search that doesn't cheat.



  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 106 (491883)
12-23-2008 12:51 PM


Pre Biotic RNA growth
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218213634.htm

quote:
Specifically, this study demonstrated how ancient RNA joined together to reach a biologically relevant length.

I'd say that "could have" should be inserted in front of "joined".


  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8751
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 14 of 106 (491924)
12-24-2008 10:18 AM


Sweden Bans Teaching Religion as True
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/oct/18/godshonesttruth

quote:
The Swedish government has announced plans to clamp down hard on religious education. It will soon become illegal even for private faith schools to teach religious doctrines as if they were true.

...

quote:
Creationism and ID are explicitly banned but so is proselytising even in religious education classes. The Qur'an may not be taught as if it is true even in Muslim independent schools, nor may the Bible in Christian schools.

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by dwise1, posted 12-24-2008 3:05 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 15 of 106 (491945)
12-24-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
12-24-2008 10:18 AM


Re: Sweden Bans Teaching Religion as True
It struck me more of a political move than striking any blow for truth. It seemed clear that their goal was to combat the rise in home-grown Islamic extremism:

quote:
The law is being presented in Sweden as if it mostly concerned fundamentalist Christian sects in the backwoods; but the Christian Democratic party, which represents such people if anyone does, is perfectly happy with the new regulation. There is little doubt that combating Islamic fundamentalism is the underlying aim, especially in conjunction with another new requirement that all independent schools declare all their funding sources. This would allow the inspectors - whose budget is being doubled - to concentrate their efforts on those schools most likely to be paid to break the rules.

In the background to these announcements comes the release of a frightening documentary film on Swedish jihadis, which follows young men over a period of two years on their slow conversion to homicidal lunacy.


Fundamentalist extremism of any stripe is a problem (though Islamic extremists do seem to present more physical danger than Christian extremists who seem more intent on destroying science education and religious freedom) and governments do need to figure out how to deal with it. It's a tough problem even to address, particularly in any society that values religious liberty and tolerance. As Tom Lehrer had put it: you feel like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis. If we hold too strong to tolerance, then they'll literally physically destroy us, but if we try to stop the madness, then we're abandoning tolerance. There must be a balance, but the trick is to find it.

{Content hidden - Links only, this is not a debate/discussion topic. If you wish such, you need to propose a new topic or take the material to another topic - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


This message is a reply to:
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