Pick and Choose Fundamentalism

Who told you that God was an all loving God? That God can love and that He does love man I can agree with, but I also know that in as much as He loves man He hates sin. The God that told the people of Israel to kill all the inhabitants of Jerico, is the very same God who wipped out all things living (that where not on the ark) on the earth with a global flood, and is the same God who burned Sodom and Gamorah off the face of the earth. Men, women, children, buildings, the entire cities, wipped out without a trace. Who told you that God was just love? God is Holy and Just above all else, He cannot tolerate sin in His presence and justice demands that a price be paid for sin, and all have sinned, even a newborn babe is born in sin, and carries a sin debt that must be paid for. Who told you God was Love? Me personaly, I grew up in a Baptist mission of which my father was the preacher, one of many my parents helped establish back in the late 70's. I, though I was quit young at the time, remeber quit well my father preaching on these topics. (sodam and gamorah, jerico, and many others) I never once got the impression that God was love. That He is Holy yes, Just, yes, that He loves man, yes, that He hates sin, YES. That He is the King of the universe and has the power and athority to do His will, OH YES. That He is an evil tyrant, absolutly not. I know better. Christ has shown me otherwise. "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we where yet sinners, Christ died for us." I cannot presume to know the mind of God, but if He does something or tells His people to do something, He has His reasons for doing so. He 'is' omniscient after all, and may (more likly than not) know something we do not.

I am no different than any man woman or child in Jericho, and frankly neither are you. I deserve death, hell, and damnation, the same as they did, the same as you do. As to the cattle and other flocks, I can only put forth a guess, that the people of Jericho where either idolizing them, worshiping them, or had in some way used them in a religious service or ceremony, that rendered them unclean.The same can be said of the children, a religious ritual carried out after birth and/or prior to birth would have made all of these 'unclean'. There is also the possibility of demonic possession. Like I said I can only guess as I was not there to see or witness what they were or were not doing. This is just one account you are using, there are others where God told the people of Israel to kill every living thing in a particular city, town, or village, and when they did not God punished them. Usually because they brought back idols or 'unclean things' as the Bible puts it, as trophies.The Bible says that we all inherit a sin nature from our fathers, and that they in turn got their sin nature from the first father who was Adam. So yes or no to your questions (KISS) yes, 'we both' share in the responsibilities of those who committed such acts, because 'we' inherited their sin nature, and it is our responsibility to see that it does not happen again.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed paragraph. Try and pay better attention to punctuation, imageinvisible.

Luke 13:34,35 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather you up as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you where not willing!" "See Your house is left desolate; and assuradly, I say to you, you shall not see Me again until the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!"In the words of Paul, "To live is Christ, to die is gain." Or the prophets, "Why should I fear a man who kills the flesh with the sword; rather, fear Him who has the power to destroy both body and spirit."In defense of Christ, what was done during the inquisition, the holocost, and to the american indians and many others, was not ordained by God, it is not what Christ taught. When He died on the cross He became the intercessor, the world from His death onward will not be judged accourding to Mosaic Law [from my understanding] it will be judged individually, by whatever measure we judge others, so shall we be judged.'For if we live we live to the LORD; and if we die, we die to the LORD. Therefore, whether we live or die we are the LORD's. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be LORD of both the dead and the living. But why do you judge your brother? For we shall "ALL" (note: ALL means ALL) stand before the judgement seat of Christ. For it is written:"As I live, says the LORD, every knee shall bow to ME, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Isaiah 45:23)So then 'each of us' shall give account of himself to God. [the rest of this chapter aplies to this thread] Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brothers path. I know and am convinced 'by the LORD Jesus' that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer living in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but rightiousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All thing indeed are pure, but it is evil for men who eat with offence. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Rom. 14:8-21As for the children of jerico, sadom, gamorah, and all that perished in the flood, those that have perished, are perishing, and will perish, {everyone that is under the age of reason} I have no doubts as to where they are now, or where they will go. They inherited the kingdom of God. Their death at a young age purified them of their sin nature and they reside in heaven. "Suffer not the children to come unto me, for it is only as a child that one may enter into the kingdom of God." I would never try to use this excuss to rationalize abortion, I too believe that a child is human from the moment of conception. But for them I mentioned before (from jerico, etc) it is quit possible that death at an early age saved their souls, which would otherwise have been condemned. Am I a little disturbed, yes, (well more fearful than disturbed) but I know that God is good, He's not safe, (because we, humans, are not Holy) but He is good.You wanted an honest answer, I gave you one.Edited by imageinvisible, : clarification, added bold text.Edited by imageinvisible, : added bold textEdited by imageinvisible, : added bold text

The answer to the question you have put forth is in the scripture, if you will read it. It is in the book of Romans (the whole book). That is the thing about the Bible; if you come across something you don't understand keep reading, because it is for the most part explained later, or it refers to something previously written. As for the laws in Lev. and Deut. most of those are there to illustrate what is or is not concidered clean and why. For instance; what is it about bodily fluids that is unclean (especialy from a medical stand point)? Or animals which reingest their bodily fluids (from a medical stand point)? Is there any medical reason why a man should be circumcised? (if you do not know the answer is yes, it is cleaner and helps prevent the transmition of STD's) God established these laws to preserve the people of Israel, His chosen people. The 'big laws' are the ones He Himself wrote down, the ten commandments. As the book of Romans states:

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3:19 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; 20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

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To give us the option to be circumcised, which if you read the bible denotes one (specifiacaly in OT times) one who has established a covanent with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the "I Am", the first and the las,t the one true God. Circumcision is a sign of the covanant (which God established) between God and Abraham. If you will read the Bible, all your questions concerning the Bible, will be explained. But if you still have questions by all means ask them, purhaps I have the answer, but if not I know the one who has ALL the answers. All I have to do is ask and He will show me.

If this is your only question; then the answer as to why I don't look like this guy (I am assumeing you mean the way he is dressed) is because walmart doesn't sell these kinds of cloths, and I can't sew.What particular law\s are you refering to? (please remember us 'fundies' reqiure specifics) What did you not understand when you read the book of Romans? The book of Romans clearly states that if you live under the law you will be judged by the law (and that no flesh will be declared rightious before God under the law because by the law comes the knowledge of sin) the law cannot save, it can only condemn, because no man can live by the law. Our only hope and salvation rests in the Son of God, who lived by the law, fulfilled the law, and died as an attonement sacrifice, pure, Holy, and just, once and for all. It is God's providential grace that saves, by faith in Jesus Christ, not by the works of the law, or men would boast that they do not need God; they can earn their way into heaven on their own. This is the grace of God, in Jesus Christ, that He, being the only one capable of living a pure and holy life accourding to God's standards, became flesh, lived the life we ourselves cannot live, and died to make attonement for our souls, (as it is written in the law). The law was established to show man that he cannot live by the law, and therefore cannot earn his way into heaven. Thank God that He provided a way, through His grace and mercy, in the sarcaficing of His own Son, whom He loved, that we, by grace, through faith can be baught into His kingdom. This is the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ, which is the whole point of the Bible; God reconciling man to Himself.The Bible also says that man will be judged; by whatever measure he uses to judge others, so shall he be judged. And God will find all men guilty (that are not under the blood sacrifice of His Son) by their own personal standards. How much more guilty would man be if God judged man by His standards of rightiousness; rather than by a mans own personal standards? If you are not under the grace of God provided in Jesus Christ then you are under the law. The law still exists, but to those who have accepted, by faith in Jesus Christ (that He is both the Son of God and the physical manifestation of God; that He died once and for all to pay the price of the sins of ANYONE who would accept Him as LORD; that He rose again on the third day; confesses their sins and repents of [turn away from] their sins, and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal LORD and savior) these are not under the law but are under God's grace, and are saved by their faith in Christ Jesus. And it has been counted to those that are His, by their faith in Him, as rightiousness; they are without any condemnation. But whoever does not know Jesus as their own personal LORD and savior, these are under the law, and are subject to the full wrath of God for all eternity.Does that mean we can live as if we are the children of satan, and not the adopted children of God? Absolutly not! Jesus left His chruch with a few new commandments: 1) to love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your spirit. 2) To love your neighbor as yourself. 3) to go into all the world and preach the gospel of Christ to all tribes, tongues, and nations. 4) All of the beatitudes, Blessed are meak and poor in spirit, blessed are the peacemakers, and so forth 5) do not worry 6) do not be afraid. Just to name a few. Furhtermore the book of Romans says that we, having been saved by grace, through faith, have become temples of the Holy Spirit of God. God's Spirit dwells in us, sin in our lives grieves the Holy Spirit of God, and ruins our walk with Him. But, living by grace, having died in Christ Jesus, and having been made a new creature in Him (with new desires) we ought to live Godly and Holy lives. It does not mean we will not make mistakes; we are still human. It means that when we do make a mistake (when we sin) we admit to God that it is a sin, confess it, beg His forgivness, repent, and learn from that mistake. Our sins; past, present, and future have been forgiven. We cannot lose our salvation, but sin in the life of a christian becomes a stumbling block, not only for the christian and for their witness, but also for those who are not saved and therefore are eternaly condemned. He who has ears to hear let him hear, amen [so be it]. BTW; this all comes from the book of Romans. It is repeated elsewhere as well but you did not get this when you read the Bible because you cannot or will not even accept the possibility that it is true and therefore the Word of God cannot speak to you.Edited by imageinvisible, : some spelling

I'm certain that when you take something out of context you can make it say whatever you want it to say. The circumcision covenant established here in Genesis 17:7 (not 8) has nothing to do with the covenant between God and Abraham in Gen. chapter 15 concerning Abraham's decendants, and their multitudes; except that they are part of the covenant. Nor does it concern the Promised Land. Genesis 15; YLT - After these things hath the word of - Bible Gateway It is a lasting covenant between God and Abraham concerning Abraham and all of his decendants in that they will serve God, and be His people, and He will be their God, as it is written. "to become God to thee, and to thy seed after thee;" 'and I have become their God." Is God limited to being able to make only one covenant with man at a time? Is God limited that He cannot expond on or add to a covenant that He has already made? When you read the Bible, do you read for comprehension or contridiction? You read the Bible with the preconceived notion that it is not true, without ever concidering the posibility that it might be true. What do you base you presumption on? That some guy, who doesn't know you, and couldn't give a flip about you, or wether or not you spend eternity in hell, says? You think, because someone else told you that you should think this way, that the Bible was written by men (that it is a manmade religious writting) and cannot possibly be true. I have read man made religious writtings before, and all of them (save these three mono thiestic texts, Islam, Christianity, and the Jewish faith, all of which BTW are based on (some more than others) the OT manuscripts that where written down by Moses) have one thing in common. They DO NOT write, speak of, or believe in, eternal damnation.Concerning Islam, I need only look at what they describe heaven as being to know that a man came up with it. Anything that has to do with an endless supply of virgins for all eternity HAS GOT TO BE MAN MADE; only a man would consider this paridise. Don't believe me, ask a woman, they would more than likly consider it hell.Concerning the Jewish faith, they are still waiting for the messiah that was promised them in the OT.Concerning Christianity, we say the Messiah came, His name is Jesus Christ, He spoke twice as much on Hell as He did heaven, He will be back, and he will bring His wrath and judgment upon this wicked world. The truth, more often than not, hurts. It's cold, deadly, and sharp, it cuts, and the wound it leaves is a deep one. This is the truth; If you do not accept Jesus as the messiah, as your personal LORD and Savior, you will burn in Hell for all eternity. I didn't say it, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, said it. If there was ever a doctrine that I (being a man) would want to get rid of, it would be this one; it would be eternal damnation. But it is not my message that I can alter it to make it sound good, or nice, or fluffy, or even pleasently carnal 'to some.' Jesus Christ is the LORD God almighty and this is His message, and it is the truth. You cannot say that you where not warned. If the man on the watchtower does not sound the warning when danger aproaches, he is held accountable. But If he gives a warning, wether the warning is heeded by those who hear it or not, he is without condemnation. The condemnation falls on them who heard, but did not heed the warning. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He is Holy (a word that has lost it's true meaning in the world today) and just, and a price must be paid for sin; therefore repent and be saved.Holy:
1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2: divine (for the Lord our God is holy ” Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version))
3: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity (a holy temple) (holy prophets)
4 a: having a divine quality (holy love) b: venerated as or as if sacred (holy scripture) (a holy relic)DOESN'T EVEN BEGIN TO COVER IT.Holy: Drop dead in His presence before a single thought could even cross your mind, Holy. Not because He struck you down but because your own sin, in His very presence, compared to His Holiness, killed you. This is the Holiness of the LORD GOD. You have no idea who you're mocking when you mock Him, or His Word. Edited by imageinvisible, : God, big G.

You think? You give man far more credit than God does. The whole premise of this thread was to judge fundimental christianity because they do not follow every law that is written in the OT. Do you believe that the one who started this thread judges him/herself by the same standards (OT laws) as they are judging fundimental christians? The heart of man is evil and wicked, and it's desires are for evil and wicked things. The standards a man uses to judge others are not the same that they use to judge themselves. They will lower their standards when they compare themselves to others in order to make themselves look good in their own eyes. Furthermore it only takes one sin (even by our own standards) to seperate us from God for all eternity, just one. That is how Holy and just God is. Does this sound familiar; I hate it when people do that, and then five minutes later you find yourself doing exactly that which you condemned other people for doing? This tendancy becomes blatantly obvious when you put someone behind the wheel of a car or in the presense of in-laws and family members. In the same measure that He (Jesus), who is without sin, is judged by man, so shall man be judged. Because all men judge Him, by their own standards, they measure His life, His teachings, and who He is, and they come to a decision based on their judgements. The standards/measures with which man judges others vary according to who is being judged, but Jesus will judge them by their highest standards, and He will find them lacking and guilty. Do you realy think that they will be safe; that this broadens the narrow road? On the contrary it make the road all the more narrow. And this is but one aspect of Jesus' teachings.Matt. 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are they who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and few are they who find it." Edited by imageinvisible, : to adminPD your link to the moderation thread is faulty, I cannot get there to make a statement.Edited by imageinvisible, : gramer and added text in qs box