Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt

No, I believe the plague myths are most likely a compilation of unrelated facts and lots of fantasy.What I wonder is that unlike the mythical Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt and the distruction of the Pharoah's army, the Santorini event absolutely wiped out one of the world powers, one that had quite an influence throughout the area.Whenever something like that happens it leads to changes, minor players move in to fill power vacuums and there can be hundreds of years of instability. Is it possible that during the period of turmoil, one of the inland nomadic tribes, the Israelites, moved from bit player to minor power?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It seems very plausible that the Santorini eruption could have a profound effect on all of the Mediterranean civilsations (and indeed those far removed).Digging around on the Web it seems that the latest estimates on the date of the eruption are around 164500-1650BC, which is actually quite a while before the final demise of the Minoans - possibly as much as 150 years.It is possible that the eruption led to failures of harvests around the world - there is apparently a Chinese report that fits in with this timescale. I imagine a nomadic people would be well placed to exploit the problems this would cause for established powers.

---

Oops! Wrong Planet

Hi, MT, rather than exploit settled areas, don`t you think nomads living off marginal lands might be forced into formerly lush country in search of sustenance? Nomadic existence is borderline at most times, and failure of grazing and water would make the tribes move into areas they knew would support their livestock as well as themselves. Finkelstein (The Bible Unearthed) talks of evidence of an annual migration by desert-dwellers to agricultural villages to trade grain for animal products. Maybe the pressure of existence as a result of Santorini caused the nomads to overrun their former trading partners?

Yes, as described in the biblical accounts.But, what I am proposing is that perhaps the biblical accounts are based on some historical events and that they have been subjected to some rigorous reworking by various groups over the centuries.Perhaps we could try and peel away the obvious unhistorical claims and see what is left, then find out if there is some plausible scenario that the texts as we have them now is based on.I certainly think that wa good case can be made based on circumstantial evidence for Israelites in Egypt.Brian.

Unless the Hebrew 'msrym' refers to Misramah in Asir, not Egypt.

The Israelite authors sure liked their puns! Brian.

"If the Exodus happened, what was it like?"If that is the case, if we are asking if there might have been some such trek which was later embellished, they I would say it is certainly likely.It is likely the Israelites were nomadic people transitioning to urban-farmers. The period following the Santorini explosion would have been one of turmoil and change. A great people were demolished and over the 100 years or so from the event went from being a world power to unknown, their trade routes disappearing (along with the related communication, markets and outposts).During this period of readjustment, it's possible that the nomads, finding their source for those things they did not produce themselves such as metal products, pottery, some food stuffs like agricultural products had dried up, moved into the abandoned outposts. This wouold have happened over hundreds of years, been gradual and pretty much unnoticed by the rest of the world.In this transition from Nomad to city dweller, those Semitic Israelites who had prior experience in urban affairs would have had an advatage. The ones living in the Egytian Delta region as one example, would know about those things needed for urban life. It's very possible that they would rise to positions of control and planning.Things like that could easily lead to tales such as those of the Seven Fat Years and the Seven Lean Years. In addition, over time the several migrations could be combined into one epic tale of adventure.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

It is likely the Israelites were nomadic people transitioning to urban-farmers. The period following the Santorini explosion would have been one of turmoil and change.

---

I was under the impression that Thera was late 17th century BCE while Finkelstein dates the highland settlements to the 13th century.I guess one might argue that Thera was one of many events that conspired to undermine Hyksos rule, thereby laying the preconditions to the accretion/creation of Israel, it seems to me that the Santori hand is being somewhat over-played.

There's a sight for sore eyes!How's it going?Where you been?Brian.

I've been fine, working slowly through an impossible reading list while wasting money on a plethora of grandkids. Thanks for asking. I see that the quest for the elusive Exodus remains alive and well. Do we have a consensus as to century?This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 05-31-2005 01:14 PM

We've narrowed it down somewhat. The consensus seems to be that it was sometime between 2000BCE and 1000BCE.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well its good to have you back.The Exodus was quiet here for a while, and it looks as if it is going to die down again.Regarding the date, we are divided between the two commonly propoed dates. The mid 15th for the literalists and the mid 13th for those who know what they are talking about.We even had Velikovsky's date of 1453 for a while, complete with Venus flying around like a powerball, the plagues were insects from a comet's tail, manna from heaven was carbohydrates from the same comet's tale, and a 600 year period of Egyptian history repeating itself!Maybe we can have some good quality discussion now that you hopefully have some spare time.Cheers.Brian.

quote:

---

Regarding the date, we are divided between the two commonly propoed dates. The mid 15th for the literalists and the mid 13th for those who know what they are talking about.

---

My heart stands with the literalists. After all, the prescience required of 15th century Israelites avoiding the Philistines is near Biblical. Not only that, it's hard to blame the 13th century on Thera.More seriously, I think "A Day Without A Mexican" should be required viewing for all who would discuss the matter!

quote:

---

We even had Velikovsky's date ...

---

Oy vey!

quote:

---

Maybe we can have some good quality discussion now that you hopefully have some spare time.

---

That's very kind of you, but I'm the amateur here ...

a more interesting question would be "what the heck where they doing in the desert all that time??" since there was a well know and every day used trade route going from Egypt to Israel. Seem very odd that they would have problems finding their way to Israel.

Hi K, God commanded that they live in the wilderness for forty years. Thirty eight years of which were spent at Kadesh-Barnea, a site that had no occupation before the 10th century BCE. Since there wasn't an Israel at that time they would indeed have trouble finding it.
Brian.