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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 136 of 591 (707691)
09-30-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by vimesey
09-30-2013 12:24 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
Absolutely. If Jesus were real, and living today, I find it utterly inconceivable that he would, for example, preach against the principle of healthcare for all, regardless of whether the sick or injured can afford to pay for it.
He would probably also have a lot to say about gun control, income inequality, wars of aggression, Guantanamo Bay, and our skewed political system which favors those that can afford to lobby for what they want at the expense of everyone else.

"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by vimesey, posted 09-30-2013 12:24 PM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:14 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 591 (707714)
09-30-2013 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:36 AM


Re: Inability To Understand
As a Faith/Belief topic, I think that it is well allowed that the Bible be used as a piece of evidence, if we can even agree on what evidence means in a faith belief context.
Actually, you are not in the Faith/Belief section. You are in a science forum. That said, I don't think non sequitors belong in the Faith/Belief section either.
The problem with your list continues to be that for the majority of it, you cannot link the conclusions to your premise. Also the final statement suggests that when we debate you and point out problems such as this one, that we are actually proving your point. And that's total nonsense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:36 AM Phat has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 138 of 591 (707715)
09-30-2013 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Diomedes
09-30-2013 12:40 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
He would probably also have a lot to say about gun control, income inequality, wars of aggression, Guantanamo Bay, and our skewed political system
Perhaps. But it seems that the last time Jesus was here that he had a lot more to say about the Jews and their religious system than he had to say about the Romans and their political system.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Diomedes, posted 09-30-2013 12:40 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 5:33 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 591 (707728)
09-30-2013 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 4:14 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
NoNukes writes:
it seems that the last time Jesus was here that he had a lot more to say about the Jews and their religious system than he had to say about the Romans and their political system.
It all has to be seen in context. Allow me to share a bit about what Dispensationalists believe. Oh and by the way, I didn't realize we were in the "science" section, so I realize that every faith based idea that I have will be challenged under that context...but I choose to use the Bible as my standard and hopefully can put forth a decent argument in that context.
Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry.
Since this topic is being approached critically and evidence based, I submit that all that I can present in defense of my premise is quotations from the good book itself, hopefully in a context that can be at least followed, if not needing to be believed. In other words, my initial premise necessitates that the Bible is to be taken literally...to a degree...in order to explain the idea of Jesus and satan being (possibly and potentially) literal. For this reason, I am asking that in order to participate in the topic, we need to go with the hypothesis that the Bible is a collection of writings that could be inspired by a higher power than human wisdom. In this context, I am crossing over into faith/belief, but I ask all participants to go with the hypothetical for now and argue---not against the book and the words themselves, but in defense of human nature.
Getting back to your statement, I will say that Jesus initially had a mission for the Jews and for the fulfillment of the law.
Matt 15:24 writes:
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
So we agree that initially at least, Jesus mission was for and to the Jews..correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:14 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 6:10 PM Phat has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 140 of 591 (707730)
09-30-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by vimesey
09-30-2013 12:24 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
Absolutely. If Jesus were real, and living today, I find it utterly inconceivable that he would, for example, preach against the principle of healthcare for all, regardless of whether the sick or injured can afford to pay for it.
Yea if jesus was real and he came back id probably go to hell but it would be worth it to see the look on republican faces when he starts laying down his hippie shit.
I seriusly doubt his speech would go like this
it would probably go down like this

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Click if you dare!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by vimesey, posted 09-30-2013 12:24 PM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 591 (707731)
09-30-2013 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
09-30-2013 5:33 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
we agree that initially at least, Jesus mission was for and to the Jews..correct?
Let's try a short cut first. I am somewhat familiar with what dispensation believers think. Before you get into that kind of argument, perhaps you should show me that whatever dispensation system you are advocating is Bible based.
No need to lead me one step at a time. I can handle simple instructions.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 5:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 10-01-2013 1:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 591 (707766)
10-01-2013 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 6:10 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
CL Stam explains it best. No need to read the book...browse it and you will see a basic pattern.
The flavors of nature. We build smiles. - I want Destroy global warming before it destroys you and I want it now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 6:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 8:45 AM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 143 of 591 (707767)
10-01-2013 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:58 AM


Re: Some things to think about
quote:
ahhh yes. faith without works is dead. You might even argue that we don't need the book, but I believe that scripture is alive and is profitable for humans...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart. Anyhow lets continue...
I think that you might be missing the larger point. Those ideas ARE all Christian teachings, relating to spiritual values ("storing up treasure in heaven") that ARE widely seen as foolish. And yet it makes sense that they at least COULD be spiritual truths or based on spiritual truths.
This is not so for, say, Young Earth beliefs which seem to differ from Flat Earth beliefs only in that the evidence against them is a little less obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 591 (707785)
10-01-2013 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
10-01-2013 1:58 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
CL Stam explains it best. No need to read the book...browse it and you will see a basic pattern.
Seriously? Go read a book is your answer to a question you are supposed to respond to yourself?
Not happening.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 10-01-2013 1:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-01-2013 9:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 591 (707795)
10-01-2013 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by NoNukes
10-01-2013 8:45 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
perhaps you should show me that whatever dispensation system you are advocating is Bible based.
Thats why I brought the book up, since you said you had heard of several Dispensationalist teachings...I didn't mean to imply that you were to read it. I keep forgetting that you are not wanting to learn this stuff for ministry purposes...Basically the Bible is divided into two eras...Prophecy and Mystery. Its not simply Old and New Testaments....
Things That Differ writes:
The covenant of the law (later called the old covenant, or testament) was not
made until 2500 years of human history had elapsed. "The law was given by
Moses" (John 1:17), about 1500 B.C., as recorded in Exodus 19 and 20. We are
told concerning this period of time "from Adam to Moses" that "there [was] no
law" (Rom. 5:13,14), i.e., the law had not yet been given.
This means that there is actually not one word of the old testament in
Genesis. Indeed, Israel did not even emerge as a nation until her deliverance
from Egypt described in Exodus. If, therefore, the Old Testament is for the Jews
and the New Testament for us, for whom is the book of Genesis?
As to the new covenant; this was not made until the death of Christ.
"... He is the Mediator of the new testament [covenant] that by means of
death ... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal
inheritance" (Heb. 9:15).
It was in the shadow of the cross, as our Lord communed with His disciples,
that He said:
"This cup Is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you"
(Luke 22:20).
This means that the greater part of the four gospel records actually covers
old testament rather than new testament history and that our Lord and His
disciples all lived under the old covenant at that time.
Seriously? Go read a book is your answer to a question you are supposed to respond to yourself?
You asked for scriptural support. The book is full of scriptural support...i didnt expect you to read it...simply open it and anywhere you look you will see scriptural support for that particular theory of Dispensationalism. sheesh.
I need to add something to this topic, however. My point is that Jesus needs to be more than "real" simply as a great human example of what to do. Jesus being real implies that the resurrection has and had a power to change peoples lives.
Some would argue that anyone can be spiritual by and of their own power. I would argue that walking "in the Spirit" implies grace...not self works alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 8:45 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 10-03-2013 5:37 PM Phat has not replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 591 (707821)
10-01-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:58 AM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:
...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart.
What does that even mean? The way you talk about "giving one's heart" sounds to me like saying, "Lord, Lord," which is frowned upon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 147 of 591 (707852)
10-01-2013 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
10-01-2013 12:06 PM


Re: Some things to think about
It is classic religious language. Basically word salad an nothing more. Lately, the majority of Phats posts actually say and mean nothing. A bunch of words just strung together because they sound nice and sound like they actually mean something when in fact they mean nothing.
yet hold back their heart
WTF? I doubt he can even phrase it in a meaningful way.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-01-2013 12:06 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 591 (707907)
10-02-2013 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Theodoric
10-01-2013 2:04 PM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:
...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart.
Ringo writes:
What does that even mean? The way you talk about "giving one's heart" sounds to me like saying, "Lord, Lord," which is frowned upon.
also
Theodoric writes:
Lately, the majority of Phats posts actually say and mean nothing. A bunch of words just strung together because they sound nice and sound like they actually mean something when in fact they mean nothing.
Looks like Black and White thinking...either I need to mean something or my words are meaningless. Quite a taskmaster you are.
Lets ask ourselves a few preliminary questions:
1) How are words and sentences and paragraphs given meaning?
2) Can emotions be inferred through the descriptive ability of the chosen words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 2:04 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 10-03-2013 11:58 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 149 of 591 (708004)
10-03-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
10-02-2013 12:40 AM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:
How are words and sentences and paragraphs given meaning?
Often through context, which is why I linked your phrase "giving your heart" with the Biblical context of saying, "Lord, Lord." How does your notion of giving your heart differ from paying lip service if it doesn't involve doing something?
Phat writes:
Can emotions be inferred through the descriptive ability of the chosen words.
It isn't your emotions that are uncertain here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 10-02-2013 12:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 591 (708020)
10-03-2013 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
10-03-2013 11:58 AM


Re: Some things to think about
Ringo writes:
How does your notion of giving your heart differ from paying lip service if it doesn't involve doing something?
Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous. People make the mistake of assuming that the Gospel of Grace preached by the Apostle Paul is some sort of cheap substitute and marketing gimmick, but the point of giving your heart is that you allow the Holy Spirit to empower you to joyfully do good works---not as an effort towards salvation but as a cheerful result of surrendering to God. You cant simply go do good works and have a callous indifference to God. It wont work.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 10-03-2013 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2013 4:58 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 152 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 5:08 PM Phat has replied
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 10-04-2013 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
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