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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9322
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 511 of 591 (727419)
05-18-2014 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Blue
05-17-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Satan
Ok so Adam knew. What about eve? What about the other questions?

Eve recited God's words to the snake, so we know she knew. I agree with ringo. You don't seem to have a point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 4:23 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 12:07 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 948 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 512 of 591 (727425)
05-18-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:55 PM


Re: Satan
Blue writes:

We do need to keep his commandments but that doesn't mean we are not free. You get to choose. Yes there is judgement if you break them but it is still freedom to choose.

It's a strange way to run a universe.


Archer O

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:55 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:22 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 513 of 591 (727463)
05-18-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by NoNukes
05-18-2014 4:10 AM


Re: Satan
If you view the serpent as satan it would make sense he fell in the moment we fell. I view the story as past tense so where it called the serpent SUBTIL it is telling it after it would of occurred. Saying the serpent was subtil was based on the story. It wasn't to say the serpent had been subtil prior to the story. So the fall was the fall into evil bringing it into reality.

Fyi: evil is not random.

Edited by Blue, : Edit


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 4:10 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 6:03 PM Blue has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 514 of 591 (727464)
05-18-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by NoNukes
05-18-2014 4:17 AM


Re: Satan
I think it is reasonable to conclude adam spoke with eve. But it is not in the text that adam said that to eve. Ringo's perspective is that you can't draw inferences from vs 4. I disagree. A billion people also disagree including a huge community of the Jewish people, especially converted Jews. This is not something new. Also if you read vs 1 it is clear the story is about a DECEPTIVE serpent that is JUDGED separately for its sins. Look at the usage of SUBTIL in vs 1 to understand how it was a separate being being deceptive

Edited by Blue, : Er

Edited by Blue, : Add


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 4:17 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 6:21 PM Blue has responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 515 of 591 (727473)
05-18-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Archer Opteryx
05-18-2014 9:12 AM


Re: Satan
God's not running it. Hence free agency. It also appears you are not thinking about eternity. Further what humans think and what God thinks are not the same. God's ways are above your ways.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-18-2014 9:12 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 1:37 PM Blue has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3932
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 516 of 591 (727477)
05-18-2014 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:22 PM


Re: Satan
Yes God is running it. He makes both good and bad things happen.

Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Pretty clear, to me. God makes the good and bad things happen. Maybe he could stop creating evil?

Wouldn't that be nice?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:22 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Phat, posted 05-18-2014 2:43 PM Larni has responded
 Message 518 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:48 PM Larni has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 517 of 591 (727485)
05-18-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Larni
05-18-2014 1:37 PM


Re: Satan
larni writes:

God makes the good and bad things happen. Maybe he could stop creating evil?

Maybe we could stop choosing it.....

I believe that God compels us to do good but that He does not compel us to do evil. We choose that on our own....


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 1:37 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 2:54 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 523 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 3:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 518 of 591 (727486)
05-18-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Larni
05-18-2014 1:37 PM


Re: Satan
I don't read that to mean he is running around controlling all events. I interpret it to mean God is involved in events fitting his plan. The scope of the verse should be understood within the scope of the bible which does include free agency.

Edited by Blue, : Err


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 1:37 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 2:59 PM Blue has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3932
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 519 of 591 (727487)
05-18-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Phat
05-18-2014 2:43 PM


Re: Satan
Hi Phat, what you believe seems to be contradicted by the verse I quoted.

God very clearly says he is behind evil. If Yahweh compels us to do good that contradicts free will. If he is happy to compel people to do good why does he not compel people not to do evil?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Phat, posted 05-18-2014 2:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:57 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 520 of 591 (727488)
05-18-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by Larni
05-18-2014 2:54 PM


Re: Satan
No God is behind calamity which meant punishment. Read the entire chapter it's talking about punishment. You are contradicting your own understanding of the Bible. So you need to reinterpret it.

I know in gravitational science you can just add dark energy but in scripture you need to reinterpret issues until it is clear/not contradictory.

Edited by Blue, : Edit

Edited by Blue, : Add

Edited by Blue, : Add


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 2:54 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3932
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 521 of 591 (727489)
05-18-2014 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Blue
05-18-2014 2:48 PM


Re: Satan
You are wrong.

The verse says what it says. You appear to be reinterpreting the verse so as to suit your vision of your god's character.

But the bible is very clear and the context is clear: he is in charge of both good and evil and as such is the cause of both good and evil in the universe.

He admits it in the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How this be read in any other context than that given?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 2:48 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 3:02 PM Larni has responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 522 of 591 (727490)
05-18-2014 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by Larni
05-18-2014 2:59 PM


Re: Satan
No you are wrong. Stop hating on the Bible. Think with a open mind not with your preconceptions. Look at the Hebrew lexicon definition. It is talking about calamity especially if you read the entire chapter. You are interpreting it to your own personal agenda and desires.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 2:59 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 3:19 PM Blue has responded
 Message 527 by Larni, posted 05-18-2014 3:21 PM Blue has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7383
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 523 of 591 (727492)
05-18-2014 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Phat
05-18-2014 2:43 PM


Re: Satan
Maybe we could stop choosing it.....

It can be so difficult to tell them apart sometimes. Was Nebuchadnezzar choosing evil when he sent the jews into exile, or was he delivering God's 'justice' unto them?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Phat, posted 05-18-2014 2:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 3:15 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 525 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 3:18 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 524 of 591 (727493)
05-18-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Modulous
05-18-2014 3:11 PM


Re: Satan
Depends on the vantage. Of course if you were God it would be clear.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 3:11 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 525 of 591 (727494)
05-18-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Modulous
05-18-2014 3:11 PM


Re: Satan
There is also the point that he was choosing evil AND delivering justice. We see this with satan in job 1. Satan is doing God's bidding. If the Jews fell away and God let it happen it would fit perfectly.

Edited by Blue, : Add


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 3:11 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
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