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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 541 of 591 (727521)
05-18-2014 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Blue
05-18-2014 5:32 PM


Re: Satan
I am not sure how these evils were created by God?

Probably the same way he created other evils. I presume he spoke them into existence or something.

God is not responsible for evil. God is responsible for free agency. God is responsible for punishing evil.

So he created 'calamity' but he's not responsible for it? Is this like the trinity? Do I have to believe before I can understand?

Besides - it is perfectly possible to create free agency without creating evil. I am incapable of flying to the moon, but I am still to be regarded as free. Why would I not be free if I was incapable of committing murder or rape?

Where does it read any of this...

Numbers 15:32-36

It is a book responsible for love and the rise of actual peace.

Peace? When did that happen?

Was it responsible for the love they showed Priscillian in 385?
Was it pursuit of peace that practising alternative religion was punishable by death in 451?
How about when the nobles enforced Christianity on peasants using armed men? Was the Bible responsible for that kind of love?
Was Charlemagne being peaceful when he ordered the Massacre of Verden in 782?
The general destruction of pagan property and holy places? Loving and peaceful?
The absence of freedom of speech and religion- love?
Was coercing Jews through torture and murder into converting in the 15th Century inspired by the loving and peaceful Bible?
How about when the Portuguese tortured Indians until they converted?

And Peace? Actual peace? Are you kidding me? Where is this actual peace? Wars have been fought just as regularly, if not more so, since the Bible was put together.

Humanity, along with satan is responsible for suffering.

Satan is not responsible for suffering. Satan is doing that which he was created by God to do. God is responsible. Also, God created humanity. If humanity has a propensity to evil, God created that too.

Let me rephrase this a different way, if religion is the creation of humanity than religion is not the issue.

Your rephrasing makes your point less clear.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 5:32 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:22 PM Modulous has responded
 Message 555 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 9:13 AM Modulous has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7407
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 542 of 591 (727522)
05-18-2014 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Blue
05-18-2014 6:07 PM


God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
Here is a list of tribes that {theologically it is perfectly fine to commit genocide against}

Instead of rendering them infertile (the trick he performed on Sarah in reverse) - he had to have them bloodily and painfully murdered, regardless of their character, because they had descended from giant evil rapist angels and were in danger of spreading their genes. Not that any of that is actually in the Bible - but making stuff up is par for the course I'm led to believe, and if some guy who made a youtube said it - that's as good as God himself speaking the words.

You've convinced me. The all powerful master of the universe thinks that killing women and children is the only solution to errant genetic material. He couldn't....remove it with his will. He couldn't prevent them from reproducing. Nope. Being sliced open with a sword is obviously the only way to resolve this non-Biblical dilemma.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 6:07 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:41 PM Modulous has responded
 Message 549 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:47 PM Modulous has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 543 of 591 (727523)
05-18-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Blue
05-18-2014 12:07 PM


Re: Satan
I think it is reasonable to conclude adam spoke with eve. But it is not in the text that adam said that to eve.

Is that even important? It is absolutely clear that Eve knew regardless of who told her.

Seriously, I watch you make up stuff in your posts that is not said in the text, and the you duck and dodge to avoid the most obvious things.

Also if you read vs 1 it is clear the story is about a DECEPTIVE serpent that is JUDGED separately for its sins.

So when you say that man's actions brought sin into the world, you mean that in some way that does not include the serpent's deception which occurred prior to Eve's and Adam's actions.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 12:07 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 7:05 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5273
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 544 of 591 (727524)
05-18-2014 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Blue
05-18-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Satan
Are you being serious? Fallen fucking angel genes?

Are are you just jacking with us?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 6:07 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:56 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 545 of 591 (727526)
05-18-2014 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by NoNukes
05-18-2014 6:21 PM


Re: Satan
Is that even important? It is absolutely clear that Eve knew regardless of who told her.

IT was important in the conversation with ringo as per her claim. I was showing that in the bible, you can interpret inferences into the story. I am surprised you didn't understand that point.

Seriously, I watch you make up stuff in your posts that is not said in the text, and the you duck and dodge to avoid the most obvious things.

I have not dodged anything. I have refuted all claims except 2 posts in 250's. The reason I have not responded to those yet is because they are timely. There are 2 new posts I am refuting as well.

So when you say that man's actions brought sin into the world, you mean that in some way that does not include the Serpent's deception which occurred prior to Eve's and Adam's actions.

No. It does include the Serpent's deception. I may not have pointed that out in my post but in my mind I was including the Serpent. The Serpent is absolutely included in the reason for the fall.

Edited by Blue, : No reason given.

Edited by Blue, : Add


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 6:21 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 10:06 PM Blue has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 546 of 591 (727528)
05-18-2014 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Blue
05-18-2014 7:05 PM


Re: Satan
IT was important in the conversation with ringo as per her claim. I was showing that in the bible, you can interpret inferences into the story. I am surprised you didn't understand that point.

Yes, and then we watch you absolutely refuse to draw inferences that are pretty much unavoidable. Like the idea that we don't have to be told that the serpent was already up to no good before Adam and Eve sinned.

No. It does include the Serpent's deception. I may not have pointed that out in my post but in my mind I was including the Serpent. The Serpent is absolutely included in the reason for the fall.

Sigh.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 7:05 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 12:04 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 547 of 591 (727529)
05-18-2014 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Modulous
05-18-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Satan
Probably the same way he created other evils. I presume he spoke them into existence or something.

You still don't know that he created evil. This a claim which has not been established as fact. What you have is an event and then an interpretation of that event. The event does not scream evil it screams interpret ME.

So he created 'calamity' but he's not responsible for it? Is this like the trinity? Do I have to believe before I can understand?

I suppose you need to open your mind enough to see other vantages which will reveal other vantages. Point, punishing evil is not evil.

Besides - it is perfectly possible to create free agency without creating evil. I am incapable of flying to the moon, but I am still to be regarded as free. Why would I not be free if I was incapable of committing murder or rape?

Free agency is just that, do what the fuck you want to do, it would involve 0 limitations.

The law is to guide you into heaven. I suppose since you don't like the law, or God it does not really matter. You will be fine dead. I think the most common thing I have heard from an atheist is, I am fine thinking I am dead in death. I presume you're the same? IF so why are we arguing?

Numbers 15:32-36

Ok. The counter argument is clearly, this does not refute the God of the Bible as a God. IT does clearly demonstrate how important it is to keep the Sabbath.

Peace? When did that happen?

Was it responsible for the love they showed Priscillian in 385?
Was it pursuit of peace that practising alternative religion was punishable by death in 451?
How about when the nobles enforced Christianity on peasants using armed men? Was the Bible responsible for that kind of love?
Was Charlemagne being peaceful when he ordered the Massacre of Verden in 782?
The general destruction of pagan property and holy places? Loving and peaceful?
The absence of freedom of speech and religion- love?
Was coercing Jews through torture and murder into converting in the 15th Century inspired by the loving and peaceful Bible?
How about when the Portuguese tortured Indians until they converted?

And Peace? Actual peace? Are you kidding me? Where is this actual peace? Wars have been fought just as regularly, if not more so, since the Bible was put together.

The idea is to bring peace. War does bring peace. In my understanding, you need to remove evil, and through removing evil you bring peace. It is absolutely unheard of to appease everyone. The progressives try to appease everyone but this can only be done through law which as a result leads to tyranny. Think of it this way, if the Bible is in fact the word of God then the above is not so bad because it will bring you a life in eternity. This is what most people fail to realize. As much as I can appreciate your humanity, in general humanity is evil. IF you don't think humanity is evil even from an atheist vantage there is something wrong with you. I have been atheist before and the things I saw in humanity was evil. Again I will say, if religion is man made, then God is not the problem. However, in religion the goal is to bring peace. I can't speak for the evils people have done in the name of Christianity, Islam, Atheism and the like but in most cases it is not because of the Bible (can't speak for the quran don't care too either) per say it is their interpretation of it. Where is the peace? Peace will be in the new existence once free agency has lead man to God.

Satan is not responsible for suffering. Satan is doing that which he was created by God to do. God is responsible. Also, God created humanity. If humanity has a propensity to evil, God created that too.

No, Satan chose to be evil. God intended on satan to be a guardian angel. Ezekiel 28. Yes God new what satan would do but this does not mean it is God's fault. Further man chose evil in free agency as well. God's is responsible for creating free agency.

Your rephrasing makes your point less clear.

The point I am making is if humanity created religion and God does not exist then the problem can't be religion. The problem is clearly humanity. Yes the Bible can seem cruel in some places, but it is reasonably cruel. Humanity is evil. What I find more interesting is that this point is made thousands of years ago, in Genesis 3. Hence why the Bible is a guide to heaven. IT is directly telling you humanity is evil and you need to follow certain laws. IF humanity simply followed those laws IT would bring PEACE. The problem is not the Bible, it is not God, the problem is CLEARLY humanity.

Edited by Blue, : err

Edited by Blue, : err

Edited by Blue, : Err

Edited by Blue, : err


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 6:07 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:21 PM Blue has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 548 of 591 (727530)
05-18-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Modulous
05-18-2014 6:16 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
Instead of rendering them infertile (the trick he performed on Sarah in reverse) - he had to have them bloodily and painfully murdered, regardless of their character, because they had descended from giant evil rapist angels and were in danger of spreading their genes. Not that any of that is actually in the Bible - but making stuff up is par for the course I'm led to believe, and if some guy who made a youtube said it - that's as good as God himself speaking the words.

I have been trying to tell you that God created humanity, the angels, etc with the law of free agency. This meant they can do what the fuck they want to do... Yes God does have a law, but it is up to all of us to follow it.

The next point is that God does not do pre-crime like in minority report. Even though God does know what choices we will make he will judge you in the action. This is why he will not do the opposite that he did to Abraham/Sarah.


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 6:16 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:22 PM Blue has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 549 of 591 (727531)
05-18-2014 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Modulous
05-18-2014 6:16 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
You've convinced me. The all powerful master of the universe thinks that killing women and children is the only solution to errant genetic material. He couldn't....remove it with his will. He couldn't prevent them from reproducing. Nope. Being sliced open with a sword is obviously the only way to resolve this non-Biblical dilemma.

I am not trying to convince you. In truth I just enjoy these discussions. However, I would suggest you look into it with an open mind. Especially now that you know that God does not do pre crime. No pun intended. You seem perfectly intelligent. I am just asking you, who seems to be versed, to look at it with an open mind. I doubt you will but at least I tried. On the other side of the coin, I learned something about the old testament (or maybe I forgot about that verse, skipped it when reading it, dunno. I have read it a few times) I didn't realize it was that important to rest on the Sabbath. Now you are thinking, idiot I was not trying to teach you about the old testament I was trying to teach you about how the God of the bible is false. FYI: I got that message too, I just disagree with you.


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 6:16 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:32 AM Blue has responded
 Message 574 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:25 PM Blue has responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 550 of 591 (727532)
05-18-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Coragyps
05-18-2014 6:25 PM


Re: Satan
I am absolutely dinosaur serious. What is so hard to believe that the God of the Bible, created everything including humanity and angels. Then later they decided to choose evil which lead to angels and humanity procreating. You do realize there is like 90,000 years of humanity not accounted for in history, right? Further the history that we do have is so broken.

Who would of thought dinosaurs were real 200 years ago? We are so used to our modern day reality with computers and high tech gadgets, cars, planes, science, etc that we fail to forget there was a long long long long long long long long long history and reality was probably much different in each age.


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Coragyps, posted 05-18-2014 6:25 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:40 AM Blue has responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 551 of 591 (727534)
05-19-2014 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by NoNukes
05-18-2014 10:06 PM


Re: Satan
Yes, and then we watch you absolutely refuse to draw inferences that are pretty much unavoidable. Like the idea that we don't have to be told that the serpent was already up to no good before Adam and Eve sinned.

IT is arguable that the Serpent was up to no good before they sinned. I just don't think that is the case. There is nothing in the Bible except verse 1 of the fall pointing to it. Are we agreeing that the Serpent is satan?

Edited by Blue, : edit


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 10:06 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 9:20 AM Blue has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3942
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 552 of 591 (727555)
05-19-2014 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:47 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
I was trying to teach you about how the God of the bible is false.

No one is trying to prove your god is not real. Only that the characteristics you ascribe to him conflict with what the bible states.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:47 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 9:11 AM Larni has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3942
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 553 of 591 (727556)
05-19-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:56 PM


Re: Satan
Who would have thought dinosaurs were real 200 years ago?

Xenophanes (570-480 BC) wrote about fossils. Rather more than 200 years. And what is this missing 90,000 years (the middle Stone Age characterised by Aterian technology)?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:56 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 9:14 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 554 of 591 (727583)
05-19-2014 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Larni
05-19-2014 3:32 AM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
I think there are varying opinions on what people in this forum are doing. You maybe trying to argue that the God of the bible is different than my interpretation. However nobody here has successfully refuted/changed my thoughts except modulus with respect to sabbath day. What you and others here should realize is the bible does not state what you claim especially with respect to the whole context of chapters being debated. Another point, if you think I believe an atheist doesn't want to fit the God of the bible into a framework which does argue he doesn't exist you are crazy. There is most definitely an agenda in this forum for atheists to show God does not exist. This is the extreme being debated. I think it is important for you to realize everything is argumentative and there IS 2 arguments with varying implications here. I don't view the one being argued by the atheist community valid. Is that really a surprise? I mean I am a Christian and the other side is atheist (yes I do realize there maybe other christians). There is not a default to christians are wrong. It is a argument...

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:32 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 9:28 AM Blue has responded
 Message 561 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 11:25 AM Blue has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 555 of 591 (727585)
05-19-2014 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Modulous
05-18-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Satan
I am incapable of flying to the moon, but I am still to be regarded as free. Why would I not be free if I was incapable of committing murder or rape?

I think this is a trivially easy distinction to make. Living beings are not physically capable of flying to the moon, so accordingly no mental tinkering is necessary to disallow it. On the other hand, there is no physical reason why you have to love your neighbor as yourself, so when you choose to do so, you exhibit free will.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 6:07 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 11:29 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 566 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 1:01 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 575 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:30 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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