Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 123 (8774 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-23-2017 8:46 AM
398 online now:
AZPaul3, Faith, frako, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD, Tangle (7 members, 391 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Happy Birthday: anglagard
Post Volume:
Total: 814,436 Year: 19,042/21,208 Month: 1,801/3,111 Week: 22/574 Day: 22/38 Hour: 5/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
35363738
39
40Next
Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 571 of 591 (727653)
05-19-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by NoNukes
05-19-2014 2:32 PM


Re: Satan
The only way to deprive a person of free agency is if one could control your body and your thoughts.

Edited by Blue, : Edit


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 2:32 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 572 of 591 (727655)
05-19-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:22 PM


Calamity Yahweh
You still don't know that he created evil.

We're talking about 'calamity' remember? Are you calling God a liar now?

I suppose you need to open your mind enough to see other vantages which will reveal other vantages. Point, punishing evil is not evil.

I'm not contending that punishing evil is evil.

I'm saying God is responsible for the calamities he causes. You dispute this. I'm waiting for your defence.

Free agency is just that, do what the fuck you want to do, it would involve 0 limitations.

So we don't have free agency, gotcha.

Evidence: agoraphobics would like to go to the shop, but they have limitations.
Agorophobics are merely extreme examples of normal human functioning.
Humans are limited in their capacities to do whatever the fuck they want.
Ergo, humans do not have free agency.

The law is to guide you into heaven. I suppose since you don't like the law, or God it does not really matter.

I see your Christian concern for your fellow man. Your indifference to what you believe will be my future suffering is noted.

You will be fine dead. I think the most common thing I have heard from an atheist is, I am fine thinking I am dead in death. I presume you're the same? IF so why are we arguing?

Because we're not talking about atheism? Therefore we're arguing about something else. I think I've made it clear what I'm arguing about.

Ok. The counter argument is clearly, this does not refute the God of the Bible as a God.

The counter argument sucks. It sucks because the argument did not conclude that it refutes the god of the Bible as a god. In fact, I didn't make an argument. I just asked why would I not a hate a book that justifies capital punishment for trivial crimes?

IT does clearly demonstrate how important it is to keep the Sabbath.

Indeed, because if you didn't people would murder you and would never face any justice for it. Wonderful.

The idea is to bring peace.

Yes, and peace has not been brought in the millennia since its composition.

War does bring peace.

Except
a) While the war is ongoing
b) When the next war begins because of the consequences of the previous one

You know - like human history.

abe: in other news Ignorance brings Strength. Freedom brings slavery.

In my understanding, you need to remove evil, and through removing evil you bring peace.

So the Bible brought peace by ensuring we'd be in a perpetual state of war and reinforcing the comfortable delusion that war is about removing evil. I'm just not sure who the evil people were in the War of the Spanish Succession, remind me? What about the War of the Roses? The hundred years war? The Norman conquest of Britain?

Think of it this way, if the Bible is in fact the word of God then the above is not so bad because it will bring you a life in eternity.

That's like the worst possible thing that you could possibly wish for me. I'd sooner be tortured for a thousand years, thanks.

As much as I can appreciate your humanity, in general humanity is evil.

Yep. And the Bible has not changed this one iota has it?

Again I will say, if religion is man made, then God is not the problem.

If religion is solely man made then we know nothing about god or the gods and this entire discussion about Jesus and Satan is meaningless.

However, in religion the goal is to bring peace.

I'm sure. It's not been successful has it? As you say - the only way religion has inspired peace is by encouraging the killing of anybody that disagrees on even minor philosophical points...I mean evil people.

I can't speak for the evils people have done in the name of Christianity, Islam, Atheism and the like but in most cases it is not because of the Bible (can't speak for the quran don't care too either) per say it is their interpretation of it.

No Bible, no bad interpretations.

Where is the peace? Peace will be in the new existence once free agency has lead man to God.

So when you said the Bible is a book responsible the rise of actual peace you were in fact not telling the truth? What you meant to say is 'I believe the Bible will one day be responsible for these things, but it hasn't happened yet.'

To which I reply. 2,000 years of wars, persecutions, pogroms, and mob 'justice' is not grounds for encouragement in this regard.

No, Satan chose to be evil.

What did he use to make this decision? Was that thing created by God?

God intended on satan to be a guardian angel. Ezekiel 28.

I don't see any mention of Satan there. Nor do I see any discussion about choice. Maybe you could help a closed minded atheist out?

The point I am making is if humanity created religion and God does not exist then the problem can't be religion. The problem is clearly humanity.

I contend its both. That religion is a symptom of humanity's problems.

Yes the Bible can seem cruel in some places, but it is reasonably cruel.

No. It is absolutely not reasonably cruel, whatever that means.

Humanity is evil.

Therefore genocide is justified. I get it, you wish you were Hitler

IT is directly telling you humanity is evil and you need to follow certain laws. IF humanity simply followed those laws IT would bring PEACE.

Sure, if everybody followed the Koran I'm sure there would be peace. We've already established that humanity, God's creation, is evil. So obviously attempting to get humanity to all follow any unified set of rules is impossible.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:22 PM Blue has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 573 of 591 (727656)
05-19-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:41 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
I have been trying to tell you that God created humanity, the angels, etc with the law of free agency. This meant they can do what the fuck they want to do...

And what causes their desires?

And what does any of this have to do with the absurd notion that genocide is justified because of evil angel genes?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:41 PM Blue has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 574 of 591 (727657)
05-19-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:47 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
However, I would suggest you look into it with an open mind.

Do you want to get our minds out and compare who has the more open one?

I am perfectly fine with paedophiles. I have no problem with them whatsoever. I would vote for a qualified paedophile into high office.

Your turn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:47 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:27 PM Modulous has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 575 of 591 (727659)
05-19-2014 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by NoNukes
05-19-2014 9:13 AM


free agency
Living beings are not physically capable of flying to the moon, so accordingly no mental tinkering is necessary to disallow it.

Are brains somehow magical?

On the other hand, there is no physical reason why you have to love your neighbor as yourself, so when you choose to do so, you exhibit free will.

Unless your brain is built that way.

Tell me - is there any reason a human brain has to be able to even consider homicide?
There are plenty of other animal brains that don't.
How would my non-murdering self's (as of today's date at least) freedom be affected if my brain was built to be nice and never nasty? Would that mean I couldn't choose to listen to Mozart? Go to the cinema? Decide between collecting money for charity or donating my labour? How would my freedom be challenged?

If anything, my freedom is also impeded by the fact that I have no choice but to consider evil alternatives from time to time. This results in me occasionally hurting other people - against my better nature and long term intents.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 9:13 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 576 of 591 (727660)
05-19-2014 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by NoNukes
05-19-2014 2:32 PM


Re: Satan
How is a mental block different from a physical block? It's all god magicking our ability to take an action.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2014 2:32 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:22 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 577 of 591 (727661)
05-19-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by Blue
05-19-2014 1:45 PM


Re: Satan
Nice of him to invent murder and rape for us to do. If he had not given us the capacity to do so we could have kept on living our lives sans murder and rape.

But he chose to invent rape and murder. If he had made us proof against murder and rape it would be much better. Although it would impinge on the rights of murderers to rape and murder.

That's the thing. By allowing people to do rape and murder your god is putting the rights of rapists and murderers to murder and rape over the rights of normal people not to be murdered and raped.

Some one has to have their rights curtailed. As it stands though, the rights of normal people not to raped and murdered are frequently denied (by rapists and murderers).

If I were in charge I would have curtailed the rights of murderers and rapists to ply their dirty trade but I guess Yahweh wanted a world with rape and murder in it (as he created it that way).

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 1:45 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 3:53 PM Larni has responded
 Message 580 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:04 PM Larni has responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 578 of 591 (727662)
05-19-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Larni
05-19-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Satan
God didn't invent them lol...

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:40 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 4:03 PM Blue has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 579 of 591 (727664)
05-19-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Blue
05-19-2014 3:53 PM


Re: Satan
He invented everything.

He specifically invented humans with the capacity to be corrupted by one of his inventions (a talking snake).

But if you are so narrow minded that you can't imagine your god to be bigger than you imagine him to be I guess nothing will convince you that god is not restrained by human morality.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 3:53 PM Blue has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:15 PM Larni has not yet responded
 Message 582 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:20 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 580 of 591 (727665)
05-19-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Larni
05-19-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Satan
Rape and murder are a property of free agency.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:40 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 5:07 PM Blue has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 581 of 591 (727667)
05-19-2014 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Larni
05-19-2014 4:03 PM


Re: Satan
You can't be properly judged without full free agency. God created the ability to be evil and good. The choice is yours.

Edited by Blue, : Err


Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 4:03 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 582 of 591 (727668)
05-19-2014 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by Larni
05-19-2014 4:03 PM


Re: Satan
Yes the ability or capacity to be evil. We agree. This is not the same as creating evil.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 4:03 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 583 of 591 (727669)
05-19-2014 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by Larni
05-19-2014 3:38 PM


Re: Satan
We are not managed. If God managed us/controlled us he couldn't judge us.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:38 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 591 (727670)
05-19-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Modulous
05-19-2014 3:25 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
You are a hypocrite.

Sincerely

Blue


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:25 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 5:00 PM Blue has not yet responded
 Message 587 by Theodoric, posted 05-19-2014 5:49 PM Blue has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7410
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 585 of 591 (727671)
05-19-2014 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Blue
05-19-2014 4:27 PM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
However, I would suggest you look into it with an open mind.

Do you want to get our minds out and compare who has the more open one?

I am perfectly fine with paedophiles. I have no problem with them whatsoever. I would vote for a qualified paedophile into high office.

Your turn.

You are a hypocrite.

I guess I win, I'm more open minded than you. I thought I'd win that one. I haven't met a religious person who tried the 'you need to be open minded' who has ever come close to beating me at that game...I'm just too good at it.

Apparently you're so lazy you can't even be bothered to explain your positions any more. Not that you put much effort into the theory of evil raping angels.

Any chance we can get back to discussing who is responsible for the bad things in this world Jesus or Satan - or any ancillary discussions? Or is have you permanently degraded to responding with lazy single sentence replies? I know - it's difficult to write a lot without getting your argument torn to shreds, but you should see that as a good thing. It's purifying the evil from your mind through verbal warfare - it brings mental peace if you let it guide you to good!

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 4:27 PM Blue has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
35363738
39
40Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017