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Author Topic:   Can God lie?
Brian
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 31 of 79 (100440)
04-16-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Cold Foreign Object
04-15-2004 11:25 PM


Hi WT,

Just a quick note.

I know you have a few other members to respond to, so I thought I would let you know that you can put your answers to my posts on hold for a week or so as it appears I have been a little to over enthiusiastic about getting back on my feet again. I have had a teensy little setback on my recovery which requires me to rest my knee for another week, so I wont be posting again until next weekend at the earliest. Hope this is not too inconvenient for you but I really do not have much of a choice.

Take care of yourself.

Brian.


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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 79 (100672)
04-18-2004 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object
04-13-2004 3:51 PM


I am not familiar with the church in question, their doctrine, or their practices. There is one comment I do feel slighted by.

Charismatics gloat over their experience with Christ and elevate that uniqueness to somehow make them superior members of the kingdom.

Generalizations tend to be dangerous. As a charasmatic whose heart is for unity in the body, I would request that you don't lump us all in together. If you'll look at any of my previous posts, you'll see that were not all condescending towards other Christians. I will concede that there are many who are, but I also know many who aren't.

[edited for poor grammer]

[This message has been edited by Angeldust, 04-18-2004]


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 33 of 79 (100769)
04-18-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Angeldust
04-18-2004 1:12 AM


Agreed !
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Prince Lucianus
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 79 (125924)
07-20-2004 12:04 PM


God lied that Jacob would from now on be called Israel (or he forgot?):

(Genesis 35:10) God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. So he named him Israel.

(Genesis 46:2) And God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, "Jacob! Jacob!" "Here I am," he replied.

Furthermore, he told David that his lineage would rule the kingdom forever (2 Samuel 13 & 16) which never happened.

He told Moses to lie to the Pharaoh: in Exodus 3:18. So, he induces lying and actually is kind to midwives because they lied to the pharaoh (Exodus 1:15).

Lucy


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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 35 of 79 (137302)
08-27-2004 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 3:50 PM


if Mike cant, I can; in a word Yes the Bible does not contradict itself.
If you mean, Can you honestly say that the Bible does not contradict itself then, if Mike cant, I can; in a word Yes the Bible does not contradict itself.

However, there are contradictions recorded in the Bible.

For example:

In John 7: 41, 42 The Pharisees state, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? and yet two chapters later they say We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. (John 9: 29)

Hear you can see that the Pharisees are directly contradicting themselves. Once they say He (Jesus) cannot be the long awaited Messiah (Christ) because they know where He comes from, and then they turn around and say He cant be the Messiah because they dont know where He comes from.

On the question of Omnipotent:

The New Compact Bible Dictionary, 1967, defines Omnipotent as:

The attribute of God, which, describes His ability to do whatever He wills. He cannot do anything contrary to His nature as God, such as to ignore sin, to sin or to do something absurd or self-contradictory. God is not controlled by His power, but has complete control over it; otherwise He would not be a free being.

No ones power is equal to, or greater than, Gods; No one has equal or grater authority than God. So, not only is God the Ultimate Authority, He is also the Ultimate Power. Any being whose power and authority out strips all others is, by definition, Omnipotent.

As for 24,000 / 23,000 died in plague. Num 25:9 / 1 Cor 10:8

Numbers 25: 9

9And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

1 Corinthians 10: 8

8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

You failed to fallow the Rules of Interpretation, and the Scientific Method. Rule number one {for both} states, Determine the correct frame of reference

In Numbers 25 it simply states that, twenty and four thousand people died, where as, 1Corinthians specifies that three and twenty thousand fell in one day. So, apparently, a total of twenty four thousand people died, but only twenty three thousand died in one day.

Where is the contradiction again?

As for David took 700 / 7000 horsemen. 2 Sam 8:4 / 1 Chron 18:4

2 Samuel 8: 1 4

1And after this it came to pass that David smote the Philistines, and subdued them: and David took Methegammah out of the hand of the Philistines.
2And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
3David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 4And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots. (KJV)

1 Chronicles 18: 1 4

1Now after this it came to pass, that David smote the Philistines, and subdued them, and took Gath and her towns out of the hand of the Philistines.
2And he smote Moab; and the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
3And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates. 4And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots. (KJV)

First Methegammah and Gath, according to the Bible Library 4.0 Special Edition software Bible Dictionary, are speaking of the same city. So your argument would seam valid, However, Let us apply the Rules of Interpretation, and the Scientific Method. Rule #1, Determine the correct frame of reference

If you will note 2 Samuel states, David took Methegammah out of the hand of the Philistines. (1b) And that 3David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 4And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots. (3,4). Therefore, David troop took seven hundred horsemen from Hadadezer

In contrast, 1 Chronicles states that davids troops took Gath and her towns out of the hand of the Philistines. (1b) And that 3And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates. 4And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots. (3,4)

So, 2 samuel states that King Davids troops took seven hundred horsemen, in Methegammah, from Hadadezer. Where as, King David's troops took seven thousand horsemen, in and around Gath (Methegammah) from Hadadezer.

Just so we do not miss something here, King Davids Troops defeated the Phillistins, and killed King Hadadezer. From the city of Gath (Methegammah) his men took seven hundred horsemen, where as, from the whole reign Gath and her towns his men took seven thousand horsemen.

As for All / not all cattle, horses died. Ex 9:3,6 / Ex 14:9

Exodus 9: 1 6

1. Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
2. For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
3. Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous Murrain.
4. And the Lord shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
5. And the Lord appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the Lord shall do this thing in the land.
6. And the Lord did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.

Exodus 14: 1 9

1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.
3. For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.
4. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
5. And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
6. And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:
7. And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
8. And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.
9. But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon.

According to Exoduses 9: 3 Moses specified six different groups of animals would be effected cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep He said, there shall be a very grievous Murrain. upon these animals.

V6b Tells us that all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.

Then when you jump to chapter 14, you have all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh

Now, if you took nothing else in to consideration, it could be argued that Pharaoh had no horses left if all of his cattle where dead. I believe this is the point youre trying to make.

Some would probably argue that well all of the cattle died but not all of the horses, asses, camels, oxen, sheep. Well I would say that those were the cattle, I dont think they had cows over there; however I may be wrong.

You may be saying, Wait a minute, youre making my point for me. Well let me add a little more fuel to the fire.

Verse nineteen of chapter nine says, 19Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

This was told to Pharaoh less than three days after all the cattle of Egypt died. So this is defiantly a contradiction, right? Wrong!

Take a closer look at the situation here, we have a King, a Pharaoh who owns slaves, Hebrew slaves to be exact.

If you were Pharaoh, owning, perhaps as many as a million, Hebrew, slaves and all of your cattle died, but none of the cattle you allowed your slaves to keep, would you hesitate to take over theirs? After all, they are technically yours right?

See, God maid a distinction between the cattle of the Hebrews, and that of the Egyptians. On the other hand the Egyptians made no such distinction. What their slaves owned, they owned.

Their slaves, Im sure, where not their only sours for replenishing their livestock. After all, this would have been a vary high priority; considering their military concerns. So, by the time Pharaoh finally allowed the Hebrews to go they would have replenished, at least some, of their livestock, especially their horses.

Im still working on the last one, though I think my point is made. Will update, again, soon.

Footnotes:

Now, as I understand it, the scientific method goes something like this.

1) Correctly identify the frame of Reference.
2) Determine the initial conditions.
3) Perform an experiment, or observe the phenomenon noting what takes place, and when and where.
4) Note the final conditions.
5) Form an hypothesis.
6) Test the hypothesis with further experiments and/or observations.

Guidelines for Interpreting Scripture
1) Establish the correct Frame of reference.
2) Make no conclusions without examining and considering the whole Word of God.
3) Accept only those conclusions that are consistent with the whole Word of God.
4) Interpret narrative passages in light of didactic, or instructive, passages and illustrations in light of principles.
5) Take any passage literally unless its context clearly indicates that it should be taken figuratively or symbolically.
6) Accept a symbol definition only if it is defined such elsewhere in scripture.
7) Recognize that many prophecies are fulfilled more than once.
8) Be prepared to draw more that one message or application from a passage.
9) Be alert to occasional problems in translation from the original languages.

Resolving Paradoxes
Contradiction: Direct opposition between two statements or between any two things compared.

Paradox: A seeming contradiction that can be resolved by any one or more of the fallowing means:

1) Establishing the true frame of reference, or point of view, of a given passage or passages.
2) Establishing the correct definition of a given system or systems under consideration.
3) Observing over a longer or shorter range of magnitudes.
4) Observing over more or other dimensions.
5) Gathering more detailed and/or complete information.
{Taken from copies of transparencies use in the lecture series Biblical Paradoxes by Br. Hugh Ross}

Topics: Gath

Text: a wine-vat one of the five royal cities of the Philistines (Josh. 13:3) on which the ark brought calamity (1 Sam. 5: 8, 9; 6:17). It was famous also as being the birthplace or residence of Goliath (1 Sam. 17:4). David fled from Saul to Achish, king of Gath (1 Sam. 21:10; 27: 2-4; Ps. 56), and his connection with it will account for the words in 2 Sam. 1:20. It was afterwards conquered by David (2 Sam. 8:1). It occupied a strong position on the borders of Judah and Philistia (1 Sam. 21:10; 1 Chr. 18:1). Its site has been identified with the hill called Tell esSafieh, the Alba Specula of the Middle Ages, which rises 695 feet above the plain on its east edge. It is noticed on monuments about B.C. 1500. (See METHEGAMMAH.)

Topics: Me'theg-am'mah

Text: bridle of the mother a figurative name for a chief city, as in 2 Sam. 8:1, "David took Metheg-ammah out of the hand of the Philistines" (R.V., "took the bridle of the mother-city"); i.e., subdued their capital or strongest city, viz., Gath (1 Chr. 18:1).

Omnipotent:

adj. [OFr < L omnipotens < omnis, all + potens: see potent] Having unlimited power or authority; All-powerful the Omnipotent God (Websters New World College Dictionary, third Edition, 1997)

All Scripture references are taken from the King James Version of the Bible, unless other wise stated.

This message has been edited by jrtjr1, 09-07-2004 02:10 AM


John3: 16, 17
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 36 of 79 (138307)
08-30-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Prince Lucianus
07-20-2004 12:04 PM


God lied that Jacob would from now on be called Israel (or he forgot?

God calls Israel by his former name in certain context to teach the lesson that the old Jacob and all his shortcomings is still loved by God, we are to insert our name in place of Jacob and grasp the love of God.

Furthermore, he told David that his lineage would rule the kingdom forever (2 Samuel 13 & 16) which never happened.

It sure did happen.

Go here:

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=254&m=164#164 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=254&m=164#164">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=254&m=164#164

He told Moses to lie to the Pharaoh: in Exodus 3:18. So, he induces lying and actually is kind to midwives because they lied to the pharaoh (Exodus 1:15).

IF God IS, then WHATEVER He does or says is righteousness.

By your silly legalistic comment on truth it is a lie to tell Nazi soldiers at your door that there are no women hiding in your basement.

Prince:

Your ignorance of basic Bible 101 stuff is embarrassing.


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Lysimachus
Member (Idle past 2605 days)
Posts: 380
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 37 of 79 (139635)
09-03-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Cold Foreign Object
08-30-2004 10:29 PM


WILLOWTREE,

I commend the work you are doing in standing up for truth and the Word of God. Unfortunately, however, I see very little hope that any of the critics will ever change. What they do not realize is God allowed the Bible to be written in such a way to test them...in a way so that it can be interpreted to contradict itself if they like. It only reveals the intents of their hearts.

Yes, the hatred eminated against the Bible (the world's most historical document) is seemingly supernatural. Just the fact that this malice exists only demonstrates that there IS a supernatural entity behind the Bible. It goes to show you that there is a war raging between good and evil--just watch atheists and critics--see how they get mad when it comes to the Bible and religion. If there was no supernatural entity behind the scriptures, there would be very little need to demonstrate their hate.

Satan rejoices when he can deceive man into thinking God is a liar. That is what Satan did to Eve...succeeded in making her think that God lied about the fruit. Look where it brought the human race. Now, once again, Satan is succeeding with these poor souls who have no glimpse whatsoever that they are falling for the enemy's snares, deceptions, and sophistries.

This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 09-03-2004 02:46 PM


~Lysimachus
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 38 of 79 (139652)
09-03-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Lysimachus
09-03-2004 3:44 PM


Lysimachus writes:

Yes, the hatred eminated against the Bible (the world's most historical document) is seemingly supernatural. Just the fact that this malice exists only demonstrates that there IS a supernatural entity behind the Bible. It goes to show you that there is a war raging between good and evil--just watch atheists and critics--see how they get mad when it comes to the Bible and religion. If there was no supernatural entity behind the scriptures, there would be very little need to demonstrate their hate.

In all my points concerning the opposition to the Bible and the motives, never have I said what you say in the blue box.

Your statement is crisp and clear and so very true.

Your statement gets to the very core of the problem/opposition.

WELL SAID !

Thanks for this super point.

WT


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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 79 (141245)
09-09-2004 2:13 PM


xBobTheAlienx wrote:

Hmmm........ which of these is right? can He or can He not lie?"

If we believe that he is omnipotent, then the answer is "yes". Perhaps if we restate "cannot lie" as "has chosen not to lie" it would make more sense.

Brian wrote:

God lied to poor Ahab:
1 Kings 22:22-23 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Of course, some people would say that God had every right to lie to Ahab, but it was still a lie.

In this example, God himself did not lie to Ahab. According to Micaiah [1Kings 22:19]:

"...I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."

Is that the same thing as God lying?


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1342 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 40 of 79 (146779)
10-02-2004 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cold Foreign Object
04-12-2004 6:09 PM


you and your satan... god lied. because he can. because he can do whatever he wants to. he's not a big squishy happy care bear. he is god. he is to be feared. and fear doesn't mean love or obey. it means fear. when you get over that and worship him anyways, then you can get rid of your satan crutch.
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 41 of 79 (146790)
10-02-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by dpardo
09-09-2004 2:13 PM


dpardo writes:

Is that the same thing as God lying?

If I hire you to kill someone: Would I be guilty of killing him?

Note: Please stay linked to the thread. Otherwise, your messages may get lost in the shuffle.

db


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 42 of 79 (146920)
10-03-2004 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by doctrbill
10-02-2004 4:31 PM


Righteousness = whatever God does.
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 43 of 79 (146936)
10-03-2004 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Brian
04-12-2004 4:14 AM


[ behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, ] All this means is that the Lord ALLOWED a lying spirit to manifest in these people...Satan asked for permission and God let him go at it.
brennakimi writes:

you and your satan... god lied. because he can. because he can do whatever he wants to.

First, where do YOU get the idea that Satan is a crutch? Further, where do you get the idea that Satan is not a Biblical reality?
Num 23:19 writes:


God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.


1 Sam 15:29 writes:


29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

If I hire you to kill someone: Would I be guilty of killing him?
No. But if you protected someone who others wanted to harm, and then you ceased protecting him and he got jumped, it would not be your fault now would it?(He brought it on himself)

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-03-2004 03:39 AM


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 79 (146951)
10-03-2004 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 2:10 PM


Usually I find there are no contradictions

you like proverbs? i do.

here's a good one, often quoted:

quote:
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

here's its less quoted brother:

quote:
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

please note that these two verse are consecutive, and most certainly contradictory.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 147 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 79 (146952)
10-03-2004 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object
04-12-2004 12:18 PM


Why would God create a source (the Bible) that portrays Himself as a liar ?

what is your fascination with god writing the bible? it doesn't even make this claim in the bible. your circular logic won't even work here, you're just making it up.

the evidence in the text is that the bible comes from multiple sources. it is inconsistant, contradictory, and serves a number of different functions. moreover, it was written over a vast expanse of time, by many differen people, in differen places.

god did not the write the bible -- the only thing god wrote, according to the bible, is the two tablets of the covenant.

If the claim is true that the Bible is the word of God then anything written therein that is interpreted to say God is lying would be ridiculous.

and yet the text says god lies. so one or all of your assumptions MUST be wrong. the post above the one i'm replying cite's first kings 22:22-23 where god says he will lie to someone. genesis 2 and 3 has god telling adam that he'll die the same day he eats of the tree of knowledge, yet adam lived another 930 years.

If the claim is untrue (Bible not the word of God) then anyone cannot use the claim momentarily to accuse God of lying.

which are you more attached to, the bible being the word of god, or god not lying? no, you can't have both. personally, i'm not attached to either. if god wants to lie, who am i to judge god?


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