Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 111 (8738 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-24-2017 10:48 PM
411 online now:
Coyote, Dr Adequate, Dredge, DrJones*, edge, NoNukes (6 members, 405 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,146 Year: 9,752/21,208 Month: 2,839/2,674 Week: 263/961 Day: 127/136 Hour: 2/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Author Topic:   Can God lie?
michaelrobin
Junior Member (Idle past 2248 days)
Posts: 3
From: Tempe
Joined: 11-29-2010


Message 61 of 79 (593740)
11-29-2010 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 3:50 PM


No contradictions
As a Christian who has now studied the word of God in great depth I can assure you there are no contradictions whatsoever.
However, I certainly understand how there appear to be many contradictions. The truth is you will come to understand the apparent contradicitions once your understanding increases. The bible is a spiritual book and you will only understand certain things as you grow spiritually. Since spiritual growth is a like lot natural growth it may take you quite some time before you come to understand what I am speaking about here. Just be patient trust in God and not your own understanding and one day you may come to understand as you ought to understand. Have a great day.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by xBobTheAlienx, posted 04-12-2004 3:50 PM xBobTheAlienx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Coyote, posted 11-29-2010 12:51 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded
 Message 63 by AdminPD, posted 11-29-2010 2:22 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded
 Message 65 by jar, posted 11-29-2010 10:06 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded
 Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2010 12:12 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5648
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 62 of 79 (593742)
11-29-2010 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by michaelrobin
11-29-2010 12:37 AM


Re: No contradictions
You are responding to posts made six years ago by posters who may not even still be around.

You can see the date of the post in the top bar, on the left side.

But just above I responded to your first post on this thread. Perhaps you could address that?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:37 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 63 of 79 (593747)
11-29-2010 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by michaelrobin
11-29-2010 12:37 AM


Re: No contradictions
Welcome michaelrobin,

Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure.

As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior.
Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Familiarize yourself with the various functions of EvC by using the Practice Makes Perfect Forum.

This topic is in a science forum, which requires evidence or reasoned argumentation when making your point. Stick to the topic of whether God can lie and don't venture into the realm of general contradictions.

In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.

Please direct any questions or comments you may have concerning this post to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

If you have any questions or comments concerning this post, please send a message to AdminPD using the messaging link at the top of the page.

Again, welcome and fruitful debating. Purple


Important Links
  • Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0
  • Proposed New Topics
  • Thread Reopen Requests 2

    Helpful links for New Members:
    Forum Guidelines, Practice Makes Perfect, Style Guides for EvC, Posting Tips

    Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:37 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

      
    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 64 of 79 (593748)
    11-29-2010 2:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Coyote
    11-29-2010 12:32 AM


    Topic Please
    quote:
    But there is that little business of the global flood, that clearly never happened as described.

    Oops?


    He's talking about text against text, not text against the real world. Even the originator is talking about text against text.

    Participants please refrain from useless comments devoid of evidence or reasoned argumentation.

    Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

    Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

    Thank you
    AdminPD Purple


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Coyote, posted 11-29-2010 12:32 AM Coyote has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28667
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 65 of 79 (593769)
    11-29-2010 10:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 61 by michaelrobin
    11-29-2010 12:37 AM


    Re: No contradictions
    Welcome home, glad you dropped in.
    at the Bible is resplendent with errors and contradictions. Since spiritual growth is a like lot natural growth it may take you quite some time before you come to understand what I am speaking about here. Just be patient trust in God and not your own understanding and one day you may come to understand as you ought to understand. Have a great day.


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:37 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

      
    Phage0070
    Inactive Member


    Message 66 of 79 (593941)
    11-30-2010 3:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by michaelrobin
    11-29-2010 12:28 AM


    Re: Impossible for God to lie.
    michaelrobin writes:

    The biblical text clearly states that it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore anything else written in the holy scriptures never refutes this statement in anyway.

    Unless the statement that it is impossible for God to lie was, itself, a lie. You can't argue that it couldn't have been a lie because you already agree that other contradictory statements in the Bible wouldn't refute that statement; in other words, they would be lies.

    So the question becomes that considering you already admit the Bible contains false statements one way or another, how would you know that the false statements are the ones claiming that God can lie rather than the ones claiming that he cannot?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:28 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 113 days)
    Posts: 9068
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 67 of 79 (594317)
    12-03-2010 12:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 61 by michaelrobin
    11-29-2010 12:37 AM


    Re: No contradictions
    michaelrobin writes:

    As a Christian who has now studied the word of God in great depth I can assure you there are no contradictions whatsoever.

    Frankly, "studied in great depth" and "no contradictions" is itself a contradiction. Either you've studied it in depth, or you've found no contradictions. It's impossible to do both, as the contradictions are rather plainly evident.

    Now, I realize they do this thing called "Bible Study" in church, in which people read passage from the Bible, talk about their morals, and pretend to understand what it all means. But exercises in apologetics, misrepresentation, and distortion are not studying the Bible in great depth. Indeed, they are very shallow and vain pursuits, and will never get you any closer to understanding the Divine. Rather, all you will ever understand is what your church tells you to believe.

    michaelrobin writes:

    However, I certainly understand how there appear to be many contradictions. The truth is you will come to understand the apparent contradicitions once your understanding increases. The bible is a spiritual book and you will only understand certain things as you grow spiritually. Since spiritual growth is a like lot natural growth it may take you quite some time before you come to understand what I am speaking about here. Just be patient trust in God and not your own understanding and one day you may come to understand as you ought to understand.

    I whole-heartedly reject the "decoder ring" school of theology. The Bible is not a secretive text; it says what it means. If I were to need God to personally hold my hand through it, I would not need the Bible as I would have God personally holding my hand. Any interpretation that begins "we have the secret true meaning" must be wrong because it betrays its own source material. Why bother with the Bible at all?

    Now, as for contradictions. Since you have replied to a post that was six years old, I will respond with a post i made six years ago:

    quote:
    Usually I find there are no contradictions

    you like proverbs? i do.

    here's a good one, often quoted:

    quote:
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

    here's its less quoted brother:

    quote:
    Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

    please note that these two verse are consecutive, and most certainly contradictory.

    http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?control=msg&m=146951


    It remains unaddressed at the time of this post. If you can understand why both of those verses are simultaneously true, yet contradictory, and why both are present in the Bible (one right after the other, I might add), then you will have greatly increased your understanding of the Bible, its function, and its origin. However, any attempt to rectify the two verses such that they do not contradict will also detract from the truth of at least one of the two verses.

    Enjoy.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by michaelrobin, posted 11-29-2010 12:37 AM michaelrobin has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 9:18 AM arachnophilia has responded

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 837 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 68 of 79 (594375)
    12-03-2010 9:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 67 by arachnophilia
    12-03-2010 12:12 AM


    Can God Lie? Does God Lie?
    Of course the question of the thread is: which of these is right? can He or can He not lie?

    The originator's point being that since elsewhere in the Bible God is called Almighty (omnipotent), it should be possible for God to lie. He feels the verse in Titus contradicts that notion.

    IMO, he is reading more into the Bible than is there.

    Omnipotence/Almighty mentioned in Revelation 19:6 and elsewhere deals with authority, not ability. Great power, great importance.

    In Titus 1:2, I don't think our English word "cannot" is a good choice. The word apseuds implies truthfulness, not inability to lie. IOW, just because one doesn't lie, doesn't mean one is incapable of lying.

    So omnipotence has nothing to do with whether one is capable of lying or not and apseuds isn't implying inability to lie.

    We know God is capable of lying, so the next question would be, did the Bible writers show God lying or deceiving anyone in the Bible?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2010 12:12 AM arachnophilia has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by Jon, posted 12-03-2010 11:02 AM purpledawn has responded
     Message 76 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2010 3:13 PM purpledawn has responded

      
    Jon
    Inactive Member


    Message 69 of 79 (594399)
    12-03-2010 11:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by purpledawn
    12-03-2010 9:18 AM


    Re: Can God Lie? Does God Lie?
    ... did the Bible writers show God lying or deceiving anyone in the Bible?

    The most obvious:

    quote:
    Gen. 2:17 (NRSV):

    " ... for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."


    Jon

    Edited by Jon, : there's a quote in my colon!


    Check out Apollo's Temple!
    Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 9:18 AM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 12:05 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

      
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 837 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 70 of 79 (594421)
    12-03-2010 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 69 by Jon
    12-03-2010 11:02 AM


    Re: Can God Lie? Does God Lie?
    You go for the children's story. Really?

    Where's your evidence that the author had God make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive?

    The writer has God threaten to kill A&E if they eat from the tree, when they actually eat from the tree he decides not to kill them. Instead he gives an alternative punishment.

    Is it considered a lie when someone gives a lesser punishment than the one threatened?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by Jon, posted 12-03-2010 11:02 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 12:27 PM purpledawn has responded
     Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2010 3:18 PM purpledawn has responded

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5751
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 71 of 79 (594431)
    12-03-2010 12:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 70 by purpledawn
    12-03-2010 12:05 PM


    Omniscient?
    Isn't this god supposed to be omniscient?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 12:05 PM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 12:35 PM Theodoric has responded

        
    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 837 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 72 of 79 (594440)
    12-03-2010 12:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 71 by Theodoric
    12-03-2010 12:27 PM


    Re: Omniscient?
    quote:
    Isn't this god supposed to be omniscient?
    Make your argument and present your evidence. We're looking at the text.

    I'm not going to guess what your point is or whether you have evidence for it.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 12:27 PM Theodoric has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 12:38 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5751
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 73 of 79 (594444)
    12-03-2010 12:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
    12-03-2010 12:35 PM


    Re: Omniscient?
    Well then the entity isn't god then is it. Omniscience seems(to this atheist at least) to be a defining part of this god thing. Without the concept of omniscience how is it god?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 12-03-2010 12:35 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by jar, posted 12-03-2010 12:55 PM Theodoric has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28667
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 74 of 79 (594451)
    12-03-2010 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric
    12-03-2010 12:38 PM


    Re: Omniscient?
    Except of course the trait of Omniscience is not uniform throughout the Bible or for that matter in the definitions of most Gods. Not sure how it could be related to the question asked in the OP either.


    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 12:38 PM Theodoric has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 12-03-2010 12:58 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 5751
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 75 of 79 (594453)
    12-03-2010 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by jar
    12-03-2010 12:55 PM


    Re: Omniscient?
    Point taken. I withdraw my remark.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by jar, posted 12-03-2010 12:55 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

        
    Prev1234
    5
    6Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017