Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,482 Year: 3,739/9,624 Month: 610/974 Week: 223/276 Day: 63/34 Hour: 2/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   evidence confirms biblical depiction of Edom
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 61 of 91 (331046)
07-12-2006 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 2:34 AM


Re: Is archaeological and textual details "old" to you?
Bible and Spade IS a fringe journal.
Its articles are not peer reviewed.
The very name sums up everything that was bad about the early years of excavation in Palestine.
Wood may be a Ph.d, but have you ever critically analysed some of his stuff.
Bimson is equally poor. A self proclaimed fundamentalist who makes very basic errors in almost everything he writes.
If I were you, and wished ot gain a good background knowledge of archaeology and the Old testament, I'd stick to Palestine Exploration Quarterly, Biblical Archaeologist, BASOR, Israel Exploration Journal, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, and something along the lines of Vetus Testementum.
The arguments in B an S have been refuted so many times that mainstream scholarship is just bored with them, that's why Wood finds it difficult to get published in reputable journals.
David Rohl and Kenneth Kitchen may not have PhDs
David Rohl began a Ph.d in 1990, I don't think he has gained it yet, I could be wrong.
Kenneth Kitchen is now actually an Emeritus professor and lectures at Liverpool University. He's been a leading personality in the debate for decades.
He is also a big critic of Rohl's and has declred that Rohl is 98% rubbish.
Peter James is a first rate historian and researcher.
Peter James is in the same class as Velikovsky, a nutball.
The 215 or 430 year stay in Egypt is something Ill get to in the weeks or months ahead.There is very solid archaeological and textual evidence that the Delta had HUGE amounts of Asiatic slaves in dynasty 12
Asiatic does not necessarily equal Hebrew.
Jericho archaeological evidence shows MB IIC (Conquest destruction in 1550BCE)
Do you have a city wall to go with the 1550 date?
Could I suggest that you perhaps focus on one or two arguments at a time, the posting of large amount of information isn't really compatible to a satifactory debate.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 2:34 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 7:36 AM Brian has replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 62 of 91 (331049)
07-12-2006 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 2:34 AM


Ill continue my post 57 here.
Keep in mind that all (with the exception of an unlocated little city named Ai)of the Conquet cities in Joshua were destroyed in 1550 BCE according to archaeology plus some others like Shiloh and Shechem.
The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (Donald Redford ed) says this under entry "Hyksos"
(in progress)
"The attack by Ahmose on Sharuhen in southern Palestine was then a logical move or the stabilization of his reign.According to the bibliography of his namesake Ahmose,son of, Abu, it took 3 years to take Sharuhen.The assaults on the other towns in southern Palestine, ere , perhaps, not less difficult.The Middle Bronze Age city-states in inland Palestine were not attacked until the ime of Thutmose III."
Seems that there is no clear evidence ,textual or archaeological for attacks on Palestine by Egypt at the end of the Middle Bronze Age (1550) beyond the extreme south west corner.The Jericho entry in the Anchor Bible Dictionary says that the city was destryoed at the end of the MBA (1550) but says nothing about who could have done it.Because there sint any real evidence.
Yet, under the entry for Tell El Qedah (Hazor)in the Anchor Bible Dictionay
"Stratum XVI ended in a major destruction,as did most sites in palestine at the end of the MB.These destructions were in connection with Egyptian punitive raids following the expulsion of the Asiatic (or "Hyksos")princes at the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th dynasties (ca1540-1500 B.C.).A ephemeral post-destruction stratum, "post-XVI", consists mostly of burials and some transitional MB III/LB1 pottery.It is probably to this horizon that we should attribute the reference to Hazor on the walls of the temple at Karnak, which lists the sites conquered to Thutmose III."
Now,with the Tell el Qedah article we get assumptions that many take for granted as fact. That the MB (1550)destruction was Egyptian destructions.Though there is no evidence (for the mind blowing 1550 destructions).And even the 1460 "destructions" of Thutmose III are not at all proven. I dont even know if the claim was even made for destuctions by Thutmose III.Egyptians drew cities up in many campaigns, but we dont even know if they were just passing through, collecting tribute, fighting, or destroying. Plus foreign nations in the Ancient Near East(aside from Israel IMO)often claimed to have destroyed places that others actually did (see the famous Tel Dan claim by Haziel), whether it was other nations or previous leaders of one own nation.In addition to flat out making up statements.One would think that if the Egyptians were responsible for such massive destructions of city after city in 1550, then their leaders would braodcast it everywhere.Even if the wins were minor, then the bombastic Pharoahs would blow them all out of proportion.So, why dont we have any real refernces at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty (Ahmose or Amenhoteph I)to these major destructions? Because Egyptians didnt defeat the Hyksos till some 25-30 years after the MBA.Hence the destructions weret theirs.
The Middle Bronze Age ended in 1550 BCE.Baruch Halpern explains that nobody would dare start the Iron Age II any later than 1400 and gave alot of good reasons and references in Noverber/December 1987 Biblical Archaeology Review.Remember that.Iron 1 also had to be 150 years and Halpern explains why.I will later but first lets also know that the 18th dynasty started with Ahmose ascension when he was a child.About 14-18 years after he became Pharoh, he drove the Hyksos out of Egypt.
David Rohl says most Egyptologists feel the 18th dynasty started in 1539 BCE and the Hyksos dynasty ended in 1525.Kenneth Kitchen said that the 18th dynasty started either in c1540 or c1550 depending on whether Thutmose II reigned for 3 or 13 years.
Oxford History Of Anceint Egypt (Ian Shaw ed)
"Archaological discoveries in the 1980s and 1990s, combined with the re-examination of older inscriptional evidence, suggest that the reunification of Egypt took place only in the last decade of the 25 year reign of Ahmose (1550-1525).Thus the dynasty may be said to have begun officially around 1530 B.C......"
That puts the Hyksos expulsion at around 1530-1535 BCE.
These are the dates Egyptian historians have come to and it is clearly after the Middle Bronze Age ended.
David Rohl mentions that Kenyon in Jericho based her dating on a certain "Tell- el Yahudiya Ware".It was a dictinctive juglet that was manufactured during the Middle Bronze Age in Tell ed-Daba (Avaris). The small back pots show a general type of development from priform to cylindrical..By analysing the proportion of priform to cylindrical juglets at Jericho, Kenyon was able to place Jericho periods into 5 general categories.Israeli archaeologist Aharon Kempinski reduced them to 3 but the order was the same.
The Middle Bronze Age pottery and pots were all that was found in Jericho (according to mainstream archaeologists) and the rest of Palestine duing the massive MBA destructions while Late Bronze Age Bichrome Ware was found in Hyksos occupation levels in Tell Ed-Daba.The usual excuse by people like Bryant Wood and others is tht Jericho was a backwater, which wouldnt have imported Cypriot pottery.
John Bartlett notes
"..the important point for our purpose is tht jericho along with other sites of southern and central Palestine (Tell Beit Mirsim, Tell Gezer , Shiloh, Bethel, and Gibeon) , does not show any sign of having used the bichrome ware and imported Cypriot pottery.The explanation is not simply that Jericho was a backater in the Jordan valley which bichrome ware , spreading inland from the coast, failed oto reach, for that leaves places like Tell Beit Mirsam unexplained, and in any case it is not just bichrome ware but a whole range of pottery of the period that is missing from jericho. The obvious explanation is that there was a break in the ocupation of the tell after the destruction of the MB2 city"
Notice Bimson PDF journal,where he is excited by Bietak's idea of an overlaping MB/LB1 age.See page 35.
ISIS - Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum
Bietak (the lead archaeologist at Tell ed-Daba) notices that there isnt evidence for Egyptian campaigns at the end of MBA, so he would like to move the MBA destructions down to c1460 during the reign of Thutmose III. But Egyptologist James Hoffmeier notices that Thutmose III did not cause widespread destructions contrary to popular opinion.
Bietak wants to move the c1550 destructions down to c1460 based on a near 100 year so-called pottery lag in Palestine.
Bimson and Wood want the trickle in pottery from Egypt to Palestine to take 150 years.
One wants Thutmose from c1460 to be responsible for the 1550 destructions.Another wants a "1410 Joshua" to be responsible for 1550 destructions.
The problem for the former (Bietak) is that there is no Egyptian records in the early part of the heavily documented 18th Dynasty which is the only part of the 18th Dynasty anywhere near the MBA though it post dates it PERIOD.Especially after the Hyksos expulsion.Plus the archaeology dent allow such a lag.Plus even if it did, then Thutmose didnt destroy all those cities nor did any othe rEgyptian.Not ever.But especially not ina single campaign.
The problem for the latter is that the archaeology wont allow a 140 year MBA lag in Palestine.
There is a much bigger problem.Many expert historians like Baruch Halpern say that you cant bugde the start of Late Bronze 2 beyond 1400 BCE.Not only does Bitak do just that (lowering it to c1360) but he shortens the entire Late Bronze 1 period to just 70 years from 1430 to 1360.
There is a big problem.Megiddo was detroyed in both 1550 and 1460 according to Halpern.
Megiddo has a stratum 8 which is Late Bronze 2A , a post 1400BCE level or c1360 acoing to the revision Bimson has show there.So, even if you allow the LB2A to start in 1360 then you have a 1430-1360 Iron Age 1 period in Palestine.Megiddo stratum 9 , below it "exhibits all the characteristics of an LB1 city,in particular a plethora of so-called bi-chrome ware, the hallmark of LB1."
Halpern goes on to explain that"In any significant quantity, it is diagnostic of the LB1 period in Canaan".It vanishes by the end of LB1.
The LB1 city at Megiddo ended in destruction."universally attributed" to Pharoah Thutmose III.c1460.That is already outside of the c1430-1360 date for a city that is learly LB1 city based on pottery evidence.
But it gets worse.The city was built in "2 major architectural phases" which halpern feels should be 37.5 years per phase which takes the building right back close to c1550 at the end o the MBA where is was destroyed there too.
So, who was responsible for the Middle Bronze Age destructions then? The man who is perhaps the finest Egyptian archaeologist doesnt seem to place much confidence in Egyptians at the start of the 18th dynasty (which is as close as they can come to the MBA and a path to Palestine) as having done hardly any of it,if any.
The textual records of Egyptians dont record much of anything,related to a sweep of Palestine.They certainly recorded eveything else they did.Why wouldnt they mention the totally unprecedented and massive destruction of dozens of Palestinian cities in a single 1550 campaign?
There is no excuse, based on their mentality, for not telling about it in the most bombastic terms (they wouldnt need to exagerate it, the destructions are so severe)imaginable on every monument under the sun.This was a destruction that caused 90% of sites in the hill country of Palestine to vanish, and all the few remaining sites to see a reduced population.It was cuch a powerful hit that the "Canaanite" population (which became "invisible" to archaeological discoveries) went from sedentary to pastoralist which was never before seen in history.
What textual records that cover this time period (1500 BCE) in Palestine can explain an advanced and settled population with walled cities stretching up to the sky suddenly being reduced in numbers over 90% and being replaced by a pastoralist population? We "know" Israel wasnt there because Egyptian records dont mention them being there at that time.We just "know" that if Egypt doesnt mention "Israel" then they couldnt possibly be there, in 1500 or any other time in history.Even though the Bible names almost all the cities destroyed and fits every other description , we just cant accept anything unless Egyptian records mentions it.That... is .. unless Egyptians forget to mention the most devestation destruction ever.We will go ahead and assume they forgot to mention their own battles.Afterall, the Egyptians are so shy and bashful about recording their victorys.Plus we should assume that Egypt all the sudden cared about the highlands and the nomads present.Just for the 1550 destructions.Nevermind that Egyptians were walled off in 1550 by the Hyksos.We will overlook that and pretend like we "know" it was they who destroyed the walled cities of Canaan and reduced the population 90%+.
It couldn be the Israelites anyway because the southern trans Jordan lands has no settlements or powerful tribes there.
Acually, Bimson footnotes scholars who correct this 9Bimson page 30 and footnotes)
Glueck did surface surveys and found no occupation between the 19th and 13th centuries.
Bimson states
"However, as a result of further surveys and full scale excavations conducted during the last 30 years, Gluecks theory of an occupational gap has died the death of a thouand qualifications.A great many Middle and Late Bronze Age sites have come to light requiring Gleuck's theory to be modified beyond recognition...there appears to have been some reduction in the population during th periods in question, but certainly not an absence of settlement.Infact glueck himself revised his views shortly before he dies."
Bimson goes on to describe how some scholars have lagged so far behind in scholarship that it is just unreal.I would say it is as big of a lag as he want the MBA pottery in Egypt to reach Palestine.
Ill make another short post on the Amarna letters and the situation sometime later.
Ill also cover the reasons why people felt that a 1200BCE Exodus was required.And why they were wrong.
Kenneth Kitchen has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the pre-Exodus (such as Joseph being sold into slavery from 1700-2000)and post-Exodus scholarship demands everything in the Bible being accepted.
Decades ago archaeological discoveries werent where they are now, and what was discovered didnt filter in.
Post-Exodsus mistakes like a c1200 Exodus theory 9and 1400) and pre-Exodus mstakes (Hurrian "parallels") causes ven worse problems.
The patriarchal age fits 100% only within 1700-2000 BCE, no time else. the Israelite monarchy has such an abundance of obvious data, that nobody can deny it and be credible for too long.
The Judges and Conquest fit the evidence so much that it is just unreal.Same with the evidence for NorthWest Semites in Egypt BEFORE the 2nd Intermediate Period.And during.
All objetions to the Bibles historical record must simply fall flat an wither away based on the evidence.We can quibble about where little old Ai was , but the fact is that ALL cities fell in a single campaign.The walls fell like the Bible said, and the food wasnt eaten (never before seen!) in the conquered cities.The evidence shows that the semi-nomadic Israelites displaced the much more numerous and advanced sedentary Canaanite population.
Egyptian records show that Israel was a tent dwelling semi-nomaic tribal group during the Judges period but seemingly powerful enough to be mentioned.
Battles in Judges fit the Bibles description to the last detail.Exact time period and same leader names.
The major wave of Philistines arrived in c1177 BCE an it is 1170 when they give the Israelite tribes for 40 years till 1130.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 2:34 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 63 of 91 (331053)
07-12-2006 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Brian
07-12-2006 7:06 AM


The devil is in the details Brian.
You notice that I did not want James to be correct.Same with Rohls revision.
Please look at the details.
Im glad you agree with Kitchen and his bombastic comments.
LOL
As if!
I suppose you will tell me that there was not a walled city in c1550?
You are mistaking it with the later and smaller 14th century settlement.
The 1550 city had a wall.As did many cities in Palestine.
Also, many names were clearly North west Semitic in Egypt.
Ill get back with you for sure on that one.
Your comment about the Associates For Biblical Research are disturbing.Since they are the only organization digging in sites around Bethel. O well, you will save me some time.I felt I owed you a detailed paraphrase of the Ai archaeological sites.
But you can shut you eyes if you want.Living in a box wont expand your horizons.
I also subscribe to some of the pulications you mentioned.
I have about 100 JSOT issues, but I think the Scandinavian Journal Of The Old tetament is MUCH better.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 7:06 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 9:23 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 64 of 91 (331055)
07-12-2006 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 2:34 AM


Re: Is archaeological and textual details "old" to you?
Didn`t David Rohl lead a team to the Garden of Eden in Iran. Now if you believe in the G of E, then you should believe in the Flood. But as our esteemed creo colleagues keep telling us, the flood deposited thousands of feet of sediment. Thus, G of E is buried beyond any spade. Even a long-handled one.
One thing I will agree with you is the scarcity of archaeological artifacts, making it difficult to place nomadic movements. And archaes tend to grab on to an explanation far too quickly for my liking without exhausting all other possibles. Look at the assumptions that flowed from the Qumran excavations. A scriptorium, cleansing pools, even the coins were advanced as the confirmation.
'The archaeologists had discovered the very room where many of the Dead Sea scrolls had been written'-Allegro--Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls-p 98. Bollocks. There was nothing tying Qumran with the caves except a deep wadi. Other sites--other hasty claims. Biblical archaeologists fell into the trap, and secular or less-intensely motivated archaes are doing the same thing. Publish or perish seems to be the war-cry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 2:34 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 65 of 91 (331059)
07-12-2006 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by CK
07-12-2006 5:01 AM


I missed your post.
ISIS - Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum
Here is the link.
I understand your point.
But the only effect his views have is that they determine where he will dig for his sites.
He is *looking* for SOMETHING.
True!
But, then again that is what archaeologists do.They look for something that interests them.
He doesnt fudge data.He does however come up with unorthadox ways to interpret that data at times, to support a thesis.
Same with others.
Like Bietak.
Infact, their views are so similar at times that is is unreal.
Maybe Woods conclusions werent so crappy afterall.
Though I DO DISAGREE with his overlap.Mainly due to the fact that I would prefer he be wrong.Im no archaeologist frankly.
But Ill accept concensus oponion as long as it has some basis.
There is more basis for Israeli conquering of all the Palestinian cities in 1550 than Egyptians doing so.The Israeli issue hasnt sunk in yet , infact it mabe never will. The Egyptian part of my comment HAS sunk in deeply to some expert archaologists in Egypt lik Bietak.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by CK, posted 07-12-2006 5:01 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 9:24 AM Nimrod has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 91 (331085)
07-12-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 7:36 AM


There's no details
I suppose you will tell me that there was not a walled city in c1550?
I never said that at all, I just asked a simple question. Do you have evidence of a city wall in the 1550 destruction level?
You are mistaking it with the later and smaller 14th century settlement.
I'm not mistaking anything.
The 1550 city had a wall.
Could you provide a reference or two?
As did many cities in Palestine.
Such as?
Also, many names were clearly North west Semitic in Egypt.
And this means?
Your comment about the Associates For Biblical Research are disturbing.Since they are the only organization digging in sites around Bethel. O well, you will save me some time.I felt I owed you a detailed paraphrase of the Ai archaeological sites.
You don't owe me anything. I know their 'work'.
But you can shut you eyes if you want.Living in a box wont expand your horizons.
Neither will reading B and S.
I also subscribe to some of the pulications you mentioned.
Good.
I have about 100 JSOT issues, but I think the Scandinavian Journal Of The Old tetament is MUCH better.
So why are you entertaining the comic book B and S?
Let me guess, you are a Christian who thinks the Bible is the inerrant word of god?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 7:36 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 67 of 91 (331086)
07-12-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 7:55 AM


Re: I missed your post.
There is more basis for Israeli conquering of all the Palestinian cities in 1550
What evidence do you have of 'Israelis' in Palestine during the 16th century BCE?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 7:55 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 9:47 AM Brian has replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 68 of 91 (331095)
07-12-2006 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
07-12-2006 9:24 AM


I dont have too much time for now BUT
The fact that advanced sedentary peoples vanished after a single campaign that archaeology shows destroyed all the cities the Bible mentions.Read any good archaeology dictionary on Palestine.All the cities are located and described as destroyed in 1550 BCE (except Ai, which could be a number of small sites aside from Et Tell).
The fact that only the Bible mentions the destructions of this nature and in this period is good evidence.
Th fact that some important Judges markers like the 1300 Hazor battle and the 1170 Philistines fit the details perfectly.
The fact that Israel is possibly mentioned as an entity in Palestine in 1400 (mentioned during Ramses II but writting style fits Amenhoteph II inicating it is a copy from around then) and in around 1210.(if you diagree with the 1400 "Israel" mention then feel free to check out my journal reference on page 2 and be the first one to get published shooting down the German scholar)
The fact that Israel is described as a nomadic people by Egypt in 1210 BCE.The same people that appeared in the 1550 transition after the archaeologically proven Conquest.
The fact that Israel knew the King of Hazors name (from both conflicts,1550 and 1300) proved it was written down during the time the battle happened.Hazor was destroyed after 1300 and doesnt seem to have come back.The Amarna tablets would be buried in a few hundreds of years under ground.The Amarna language used old cuneiform and a complex mix of Akkadian and Canaanite.How do you think the Hebrews who "wrote Joshua and Judges in c600BCE" knew the exact time of the wars and the "Jaban" name that the Kings seemed to often have?
Ill respond to your other comments later.
To the author of post 65... later to you too.Thanks for giving and taking.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 9:24 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 10:29 AM Nimrod has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 69 of 91 (331102)
07-12-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Nimrod
07-12-2006 9:47 AM


Re: I dont have too much time for now BUT
The fact that advanced sedentary peoples vanished after a single campaign that archaeology shows destroyed all the cities the Bible mentions.
'Advanced' in the 16th century BCE?
Archaeology doesn't show destruction at all the cities mentioned in the Bible, that's what the entire problem with the biblical account is. Well at least the Joshua 'conquest', of course the Book of Judges gives a different version.
Read any good archaeology dictionary on Palestine.All the cities are located and described as destroyed in 1550 BCE (except Ai, which could be a number of small sites aside from Et Tell).
Really?
What about Jerusalem (Josh 12:10), or the lack of evidence for any destruction at Hebron (12:10), or Jarmuth (12:11)only Late Bronze II - Early Iron I occupation, or the lack of any destruction level at Tirzah (12:24).
Isn't Lachish (12:11)a problem? And occupation at Eglon (Josh 12:12)is ambiguous.
Do you have a 16th c destruction level at Gezer (12:12),Debir (12:13),Arad (12:14),Bethel (12:16), Aphek (12:18),Achsaph (12:20), Taanach (12:21),Kedesh (12:22), Jokneam (12:22), or Dor (12:23)?
Geder (12:13) has not been excavated, neither has Adullam (12:15), Tappuah (12:17),Hepher (12:17), so how do you deduce there's a destruction level there
Hormah (12:14)is unidentified, as is Libnah (12:14),Makkedah (12:16), Lasharon (12:18), Madon (12:19), Shimron-meron (12:20), and Goiim (12:23).
The fact that only the Bible mentions the destructions of this nature and in this period is good evidence.
No, it isn't good evidence. Good evidence is cold hard artefacts, of which there is very little to support the Bible.
The fact that Israel is possibly mentioned as an entity in Palestine in 1400
Israel isn't mentioned in 1400 Palestine. The first non-biblical mention of Israel as a people is in the Merneptah Stele, although even that isn't certain.
The fact that Israel is described as a nomadic people by Egypt in 1210 BCE.The same people that appeared in the 1550 transition after the archaeologically proven Conquest.
Evidence please?
The fact that Israel knew the King of Hazors name (from both conflicts,1550 and 1300) proved it was written down during the time the battle happened.
Dear God you have a lot to learn. If I wrote a letter now and mentioned that Robert the Bruce was King of Scotland in the 14th century does that mean my letter was written 600 years ago?
Also, is there any non biblical sources that confirm Jabin as King of Hazor?
Hazor was destroyed after 1300 and doesnt seem to have come back.
It was a Canaanite city at the end of the 13th centuty BCE, so how does this fit with the 1550 date?
Hazor was occupied after 1300 BCE.
How do you think the Hebrews who "wrote Joshua and Judges in c600BCE" knew the exact time of the wars and the "Jaban" name that the Kings seemed to often have?
You haven't heard of oral traditions?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Nimrod, posted 07-12-2006 9:47 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 3:43 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 72 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 6:59 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 79 by Nimrod, posted 07-14-2006 3:11 AM Brian has replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 70 of 91 (331367)
07-13-2006 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
07-12-2006 10:29 AM


Responce's to questions.
Brian says about Hazor
"It was a Canaanite city at the end of the 13th centuty BCE, so how does this fit with the 1550 date?
You arent up to date on the first part,Ill get to that later down in my responce.
Anchor Bible Dictionary
"The Zenith of the lower City was reached in MBIII (stratum XVI=local stratum 3;ca. 1650-1550 B.C.).....Stratum XVI ended in a major destruction,as did most sites in palestine at the end of the MB.These destructions were in connection with Egyptian punitive raids following the expulsion of the Asiatic (or "Hyksos")princes at the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th dynasties (ca1540-1500 B.C.).A ephemeral post-destruction stratum, "post-XVI", consists mostly of burials and some transitional MB III/LB1 pottery.It is probably to this horizon that we should attribute the reference to Hazor on the walls of the temple at Karnak, which lists the sites conquered to Thutmose III."
Keep in mind, this is a William Dever article.He has a good imagination.See my post 57 (right near the top!)for expert Egyptian scholarship that tells that there is no evidence for the early Egyptian 18th Dynasty to be responible for these destructions (nor are their claims honestly).The great archaeologist Manfred Bietak says that Ahmose didnt get past the south-west of Palestine (Hazor is in the extreme north) and was stuck in multi year wars over single towns.Even then,that wasnt till about 1520 (Hazor was destroyed in 1550 at the latest based on archaeology unless you allow LB1 lags in Palestine, and frankly I think the "1550" date could be pushed perhaps a few decades back as it was reached to fit with the dreamed up Ahmose "campaigns") Thutmose III didnt campaign till after 1450, almost till the end of the LBI.(LB1 1550-1400)
Dever goes on to add
"The full developed LB1 period witnessed the rebuilding of urban Hazor during the early part of the Egyptian New Kingdom (stratum XV; ca. 1500-1400 B.C."
Dever speaks of the impressive rebuilding programs for the rest of this section before getting to the Amarna Age.No destruction from Thutmose III.
Now,Brian you said that Hazor was Canaanite till the late 13th century.That is outdated.Dever repeats the old non-current archaeology when he says archaeology
"The final phase of the Late Bronze Age, LBIIB, is attested by stratum VIII.....This phase ended in a massive destruction of the entire Lower City, which was buried under several feet of debris and was never reoccupied"
Dever goes on to date this to around "1230 B.C." and then goes on to claim that 1230BCE was "too early to allow connection with Israelite invaders (if any)in Joshua's time". (Sigh)
Dever adds.
"Iron Age, Following the massive destruction of the city, there was only a "squatter occupation", consisting mostly of huts and rubbish pits among the ruins (stratum XII; early 12th century B.C.).....The ollowing phase (stratum XI ca. 11th century B.C.)exhibits a more permanent settlement, although it has relatively few structures."
Now, that Mr.Opinion (Dever)got done sharing his typical intepretations (the man knows is one of those people who knows "everything" but doesnt know anything)along with his more solid archaeologicl facts (though he surely smudges them a bit to fit his theories), here is what Ben-Tsor says in a much more recent (2004) publication.
In Secrets of the Bible of Neil Asher Silberman
Ben-Tor says
"Yaldin believed Hazor was destroyed about 1230 or 1220 B.C , according to ceramic dating that was accepted 40 years ago", says ben-Tor. "we know more about ceramics now, and I very much suspect that the dating could be earlier.If it were somewhat ealier it could still be Israelite , but the earlier you go the less the hance of that." A number o samples of charred wood and other organic remains have been carbon dated , but most apparently come from the furnishings of a ca. 1800-1600 B.C. stage of the palace.A single olive pit has yielded a date of about 1300 B.C."
Silberman adds earlier that the destruction of the palace and entire city was "destroyed by fire sometime in the late 14th or early 13th century" LBIIA seems to be the trend.
Silberman adds
"..the discovery of cuneiform tablets at mari mentioning a king Ibni-Addu......A partially preserved name of a king on a broken tablet found at Hazor also begins with Ibni."
Now, with that covered, on to the "480 years issue"
Dr. Gerald aardsma has a PhD in Physics.In his Biblical chronology book he says
"This conflict is easily seen by adding up the well-known 40 years of wilderness wandering, 410 years of alternating periods of oppression and deliverance recorded in the book of Judges, 40 years for the career of Eli , 40 years for the reign of Saul , and 40 years for the reign of David. This alreay totals 570 years tough it does not include the time during which Joshua led Israel, nor the career of Samuel , and these two, while not specified biblically, must certainely total to something greater than 30 years (they probabilly total close to 80 years, infact)...."
Aardsma continues
"It is possible, or course, to get around this difficulty by assuming the chronological data given in Juges must refer to overlapping rather than consecutive time periods. this , in fact, has been the routine traditional approach sine well before Ussher, and our familarity with such an approach may cause us to overlook the fact that..." 480 years isnt exactly solid.
Well over 600 years from c.970 (I Kings 6:1) which could put things back to as far as 1630 BCE.I myself always figured that Judges might not be in chronological order , but the problem with that assumption is that the archaeological and hisotrical date forces us to take Judges at face value(ie Hazor).Hazor's (during the Judges) destruction dates at 1310 BCE in the Judges period connected to Kings.I still think there could be gaps in Judges, and longer or shorter periods than numbers indicate, especially the 40 year periods.Perhaps longer.
The Conquest is anywhere from c1525 BCE to c 1595 BCE.
(more coming later, getting out some books to respond to Brain further.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 10:29 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 4:58 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 71 of 91 (331372)
07-13-2006 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Nimrod
07-13-2006 3:43 AM


More responces
I made the comment that Deuteronomy 9:1 said
"Hear, O Israel. You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky"
Then I mentioned that the Middle Bronze age was that time as well as the time the cities populations were destroyed (a few verses later, in Deuteronomy , the destruction of the people is promised).
Brian responded in reference to jericho
"Do you have evidence of a city wall in the 1550 destruction level?"
"Could you provide a reference or two?"
Then Brian responded that he wanted proof other MB cities (in addition to the Jericho walls he questioned me on) had walls like Deuteronomy 9 stated.He wants sources.
Kenyon said in Cambridge Ancient History Volume 2 part 1 under her Middle Bronze Age II article.
While mentioning towns in MBAII, she mentions Jericho, Hazor, and Megiddo."They all were enclosed by defensive walls, probably at all stages in their existence".In Archaeology In The Holy land, Kenyon said this of MB IIB Jericho:"was enclosed with a thick brick wall about 2 meters thick".
Mazar says in Archaeology Of The Land Of The Bible (p 198-208)
"During the 18th and 17th centuryies BCE the art of fortifications reached a level of unparalled sophistiction.Tremendous efforts were invested by the MBA urban communities to defend their cities...The idea was to surround the city with steep artifical slopes which will raise the level of the city wall high above the surrounding area.."
"In MBIIB they became a common feature at new urban centers..... such as Hazor (the Lower City), Dan, Kabri , Tel Mevorakh , Dor ,Shechem , Tel Batash (Timnah), Ashkelon, Tel Masos (in the northen Negev).
"..the MBIIB-C glacis are much larger than their prototypes.."
"A new type of city gate was introduced during MBIIB-C.It was a rectangular, symmetrical , large gatehouse composed of 2 massive towers flanking an slongated passage..."
Mazar sums up "The fortifications systems of MbII" were "huge fortifications".
Mazars title for the years 2000-1550 BCE is "MIGHTY CANAANITE". And the detailed , albeit concise, Biblical records tell us wht brought the might to an end.
Silberman calls this Finkelstein theory.....
Invisible Israelites
Rejecting the idea of a peasant revolt for the c1200 transformation, and not acepting evidence of a struggle between Israelites and Canaanites , pastoralists and settled population, feudal lords and peasants.Finkelstein goes far beyond the "chronological limits" most accept.He traced settlement patterns over the canaanite hill country over hundreds of years.The demogrphic revolution of the Early Iron Age isnt to be seen in isolation.The issue of the Israelite settlement are connected closely to much much earlier developments.
"As recent archaeological surveys have indicated, the hill country of Canaan was thickly settled and dotted with fortified cities, towns, and hamlets in the period beginning around 1750 BC.Yet the surveys also showed that around 1550 B.C. , toward the end of what is called the Middle Bronze IIC period, the settled population in the hill country declined dramatically.During the succeeding Late Bronze Age (1550-1200), while the large cities along the coast and in the major valleys continued to flourish, more than 90% of the permanent settlment sites in the hill country were abandoned and the few surviving sites became much smaller in size.But that is not to say that the hill country of Cannan was empty.Far from it.according to Finkelstein, the people who would late become Israelites were already there."
Notice how Finkelstein brushes over the violent destructions and brutal genocide of c1550 described in the Bible and present in the archaeological evidence? Anyway.....
Finkelstein felt that what happened was the opposite of the general accepted view of the enlightenment thinker who felt pastoral nomads would settle in a 1 way street of accepted human progress.Finkelstein felt that conditions could cause farmers and settled sedentary peoples to become pastoralists at times, and figures this is precisely what happened to the Canaanite highland population at the end of the Middle Bronze Age.Some adopted a new wandering way of life ,others maybe toiled in the feilds of the coasts.They abandoned their villages.
"These hill-country farmers-turned herdsman (almost invisible to archaologists when compared to populations that built permanent houses) were able to establish.." a new way of life.
Anyway, Finkelstein has described c1550 (which could be said as some sort of Conquest like event all at the same time)as a period where 90% of the population vanished.He doesnt mention that the cities were Biblical cities conquered in Joshua.Finkelstein describes the post 1500BCE population as becoming invisible to archaeology.Much like the Edom and Moab non-Bilical textual and archaeological evidence (though this is an oitdated vie,see Bimson link).Finkelstein doesnt feel that 90% of the Canaanites were killed and replaced by a smaller number of Israelites (the Bible describes the isrelites as much less in number than the Canaanites), but feel the whole population of Canaanites simply vanished to archaeology and took to a pastoralist lifestyle (all 90%!).His archaeology is solid never the less.His "Invisible Israelites" (Silberman calls it) reference to Cananites (who he feels would later become Israelites) would be even more solid if he could say that the "new pastoralists" were already such to begin with, not odd reverse order converts from a sedintary lifestyle to pastoralist.In addition to being a smaller group and not 90% of the previous population , so he can better explain the archaological absence.
(editing later...having massive computer problems that is wasting me endless time,hope this goes through)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 3:43 AM Nimrod has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 72 of 91 (331381)
07-13-2006 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Brian
07-12-2006 10:29 AM


My previous post got hacked.
This was meant to be put in the middle of my last post.
In responce to my 1550 destruction observations (which is the end of MBIIC)which correspond to Joshuas Conquest.
Brian responds.
"Really?
What about Jerusalem (Josh 12:10), or the lack of evidence for any destruction at Hebron (12:10), or Jarmuth (12:11)only Late Bronze II - Early Iron I occupation, or the lack of any destruction level at Tirzah (12:24).
Isn't Lachish (12:11)a problem? And occupation at Eglon (Josh 12:12)is ambiguous.
Do you have a 16th c destruction level at Gezer (12:12),Debir (12:13),Arad (12:14),Bethel (12:16), Aphek (12:18),Achsaph (12:20), Taanach (12:21),Kedesh (12:22), Jokneam (12:22), or Dor (12:23)?
Geder (12:13) has not been excavated, neither has Adullam (12:15), Tappuah (12:17),Hepher (12:17), so how do you deduce there's a destruction level there
Hormah (12:14)is unidentified, as is Libnah (12:14),Makkedah (12:16), Lasharon (12:18), Madon (12:19), Shimron-meron (12:20), and Goiim (12:23)."
Firt of all,Brian is taking many of these from a HUGE list in Chapter 12 of Joshua, that is dozens of sentences of bland naming of conquered cities.You can pick out many I suppose where you can nitpick at the evidence.Dor for example was a location where excavations were based on ancient Roman and Greek writtings. Maybe we should take the views of the ancient with regards to Ai's location then.Et-Tell wouldnt be it then.Kirbet el Maqatar would be. Many times, cities near another later city could have been called the name of the modern city they are near.In the USA , almost all towns within dozens of miles of a large one are called by the large city. Ive seen plane crashes 200 miles from a city being describes as crashing in that city.
I dont have 100% confidense that every last city we think is a certain location today was the actual site.Plus we havnt exactly uncovered and found all there is to be found in the sites.
Another issue is the problem of big cities like Damascus, Jerusalem, and Lebanese cities being heavily occupied and expanded today.No possible excavations in many areas.
We also dont know if every area had a significant population even if we know the exact site today.
However, I will take your cities 1 by 1.
"What about Jerusalem (Josh 12:10), or the lack of evidence for any destruction at Hebron (12:10), or Jarmuth (12:11)only Late Bronze II - Early Iron I occupation, or the lack of any destruction level at Tirzah (12:24)."
First of all, Joshua 12 CLEARLY says that Joshua did NOT burn these cities.
"13But as for the cities that stood still in their strength, Israel burned none of them, save Hazor only; that did Joshua burn."
Only 3 cities were burned by Joshua's instructions (that is not to say that later mobs of Israelites did not burn anything). Jericho, Ai , and Hazor.2 have been found and the evidence matches.
The Bible states that the populations were killed.
The only real way to test the Biblical text is to see if there was a large population reduction of the MBA Canaanites at the end of the MBA, and if there was a general trend of sites discontinuing at that exact time.
We may not know what the exact sites were since they should have been abandoned and replaced by a pastoral community (the Israelites).
That is the test with reagrds to the Biblical accuracy.
However we do know that wars are nasty and mobs do start fires and do other things so SOME evidence of widespread destruction all at the same time will need to be found.
Jerusalem was described in Judges 1 as being conquered in part by a tribe, but Im sure it wasnt the main citadel.The was even some burning perhaps.Joshua doesnt describe any burning of buildings but Judges chapter 1 indicates some level of burning later.According to the Bible's history,Canaanite Jerusalem clearly held its head above water and survived despite the Israelites attack.
Many Canaanite cities remained though reduced.
Hazor did too.Though it was defeated and even burnt down by the Israelites in Joshua,some of the Canaanites remained as clearly seen in Judges.
Your first city Jerusalem isnt one that can be excavated much today. But Finkelstein says the population was much reduced in the post MBA.
Hebron is your 2nd city.
T. el-Rumeideh is a question but el-Khalil was destroyed at the end of the MBA period.
Jarmuth (3rd city) was based on the name of a Byzantine village.That was the basis.
"or the lack of any destruction level at Tirzah (12:24)."
Anchor Bible Dictionary
Tirzah (Brians 4th)
"The MB gate and stratum 5 show burn destruction, which may be attributed to the raids into Canaan by the Egyptians in their expulsion of the Hyksos"
Impossible! Ahmose was in the Late Bronze Age and didnt go anyway near there!
"Isn't Lachish (12:11)a problem? And occupation at Eglon (Josh 12:12)is ambiguous."
Lachish (5th) was destroyed by Joshua at the end of the MBA.Tel ed-Duweir
Anchor Bible Dictionary.
"The palace was destroyed by a severe fire which marks the end of the MBA city"
Eglon(6th city) is a mess of possible sites.
"Do you have a 16th c destruction level at Gezer (12:12),Debir (12:13),Arad (12:14),Bethel (12:16), Aphek (12:18),Achsaph (12:20), Taanach (12:21),Kedesh (12:22), Jokneam (12:22), or Dor (12:23)?"
Gezer wasnt burned down according to the Bible.
Ancho Bible dictionary says.
"The MB city was brought to an end by a destruction that left 3 feet or more of burned bricks in every field investigated...Imported Monochrome and local Bi-chrome, as well as other transitional MB-LB pottery suggest a date as late as possible for this destruction."
Thutmose III destroyed it.There is much LB1 pottery and he claimed to have destroyed it.
Debir (7th city)
Tell Beit Mirsam was destroyed at the end of the MBA.
Arad(8th city)
Like many other cities , it gets selected uncritically due to having pottery that fits an early Iron Age settlement.It was a city near Jerusalem that was mentioned a few times in the Bible, including the Conquest.Im not so sure its the city, infact I would doubt it highly.
Bethel (9th) is tricky.
The general assumption is that it is Beitin and that has destruction at the end of the MBA.I dont think that is the site though the destruction would suit my argument.El Bireh could be the site but it is heavily occupied today and nothing (or little)is known about its history
Aphek(10th)unknown location by archaeologists,multiple site suggestions.
Achsaph (11th) not located but Thutmose III claimed to have destroyed it.So It isnt Just the Bible that says it was around in this period. Megiddo was destroyed during 1550 accoring to Halpern and later around 1450 by Thutmose III.
Taanach (12th)
The Anchor Bible Dictionary article author says it was partially abandoned during the Thutmose III battle against Megiddo.I didnt see much pottery discussion there though.
Kedesh (13th) Tell Qedesh has pottery from many periods including MBA.
Jokneam (14th) had thick fortification walls till the end of the MBA , but the LBA site which they CLAIM was "apparently a peaceful transition" has no walls and the walls of the MBA are mostly worn away or something like that.There is no burn destruction but the Bible didnt say there was.
Dor(15th)
They jumped all over this one.The location they think was the Joshua town was a port town from the 15th century.I dont think it was the site.
All the major cities had occupation and destruction (or abandonment) at the end of MBA.Jericho had walls fall exactly at the end of the MBA. Kenyon said an earthquake caused it. (I was going to put it in my other post, the quote).
Jericho, Bethel , Debir ,Lachish , Gibeon , Hebron , Arad , Hazor, plus Shiloh and Shechem all were burnt or abandoned.
The burning want always by Joshua, but is was by Israelites.
Plus the identified ones above you asked about.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.
Edited by MightyPlaceNimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Brian, posted 07-12-2006 10:29 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by iano, posted 07-13-2006 7:53 AM Nimrod has replied
 Message 76 by Nighttrain, posted 07-13-2006 8:38 PM Nimrod has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 73 of 91 (331392)
07-13-2006 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Nimrod
07-13-2006 6:59 AM


Re: My previous post got hacked.
Brian responds.
"Really?...
Just in case you weren't aware of it, you can highlight that to which you are responding to in order to make reading easier for others. Pressing the PEEK button on the lower right of this post shows the codes you wrap around the text in order to create a highlight
Brian writes:
this that and the other...
or
quote:
a more subtle way of highlighting
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 6:59 AM Nimrod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 8:05 AM iano has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4938 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 74 of 91 (331394)
07-13-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by iano
07-13-2006 7:53 AM


Ill try and repost my last post tomorrow.
Ill try what you said and post another post with the same text.
It must be tough to view because I quote Brian then go on to quote scholars in responce.Many will have a hard ime telling who it is that I am responding to and ho it is that I am quoting.
I can tell what you are saying is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by iano, posted 07-13-2006 7:53 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-13-2006 8:20 AM Nimrod has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 75 of 91 (331398)
07-13-2006 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Nimrod
07-13-2006 8:05 AM


Re: Ill try and repost my last post tomorrow.
MPN, Hi
There is no need to post a new msg. You can edit the ones you have up already to add the quote tags.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures

  • Thread Reopen Requests

  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month Forum"

  • "Columnist's Corner" Forum
  • See also Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], and [thread=-17,-45]
    http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Nimrod, posted 07-13-2006 8:05 AM Nimrod has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 78 by Nimrod, posted 07-14-2006 3:05 AM AdminAsgara has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024