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Author Topic:   Corrupting the Old Testament at all costs?
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 121 (181841)
01-30-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Brian
01-30-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Thanks. I hope it helped.
There is another issue with the passage though. The inserted text refers to Emmanuel and, as you point out, gives a definition. But verse 21
21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
also has a definition, so that is not the big issue IMHO. However, verse 25 which ends the chapter returns to the issue of naming and it is Jesus that is mentioned.
25: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
This is definitely a return to the original theme. Note two significant things. In verse 21 the angel says "Thou", in other words, Joseph will name the child. This is reinforced in verse 25 when it says
...and he called his name JESUS.
Now compare this to the inserted text.
22: Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Note how it changes the import to "...they shall call his name Emmanuel". It is no longer you, but THEY. This is a whole different perspective, from a tale about a family and individuals to an emphasis on a people and movement.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Brian, posted 01-30-2005 12:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 121 (181859)
01-30-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by lfen
01-30-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Thank you.
But Matthew 1 is only one of many examples of editorial additions found throughout the Bible. We need to remember that it is not one story, but rather an anthology of anthologies, where changes have been made with no indication as to who made the insert, what was inserted or removed or any info on why the change was made.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 121 (181889)
01-30-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by lfen
01-30-2005 12:36 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Ifen writes:
Sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb. I bet there are tons of apologetics arguing this piece of dogma to be regarded as original though.
While I agree that the verse appears to be clearly added, I maintain that the meaning of the book is essentially unchanged. The Virgin Birth is central to Christianity. You otherwise have a mere philosophy of do-goodisms. Humans still get to keep their source of human wisdom as their standard. This eliminates tthe biased and unloving fundamentalists who use the Bible to justify ignorance, but I think that you guys overuse this word, "dogma".
The belief system of the church, in my opinion, must start with God.
To try and figure it all out without Spiritual impartation will never acheive more than humanist philosophy. Of course, you have this right,Ifen. I would not want the 17 year old rebel in you to throw the finger at me! Your right to think and reason is precious. Just remember that bowing to an omnipotant, eternal Spirit without error is one of your options. As you have said before, maybe He wants you to try and figure it out for awhile and not to have a blind faith!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-30-2005 14:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 12:36 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 9:03 PM Phat has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 94 of 121 (181932)
01-30-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
01-30-2005 4:45 PM


Re: Matthew 1
The Virgin Birth is central to Christianity. You otherwise have a mere philosophy of do-goodisms.
Phat,
Clearly Christianity makes much of it. I don't understand why. For myself if Jesus had been born of Joseph and Mary the rest could have stood.
Just remember that bowing to an omnipotant, eternal Spirit without error is one of your options.
Of course. But the organized religious options are not about accepting God (or a source greater than the ego) they are about accepting the beliefs etc. that people claim are divine revelation. My objection is the people claiming that their beliefs are what God wants me to believe. God has never told me this. Others like yourself have told me this.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 01-30-2005 4:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 01-30-2005 11:20 PM lfen has replied
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 02-01-2005 5:56 AM lfen has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 121 (181964)
01-30-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by lfen
01-30-2005 9:03 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Ifen writes:
My objection is the people claiming that their beliefs are what God wants me to believe. God has never told me this. Others like yourself have told me this.
Good answer. Quite honest and to the point! I don't recall telling you specifically and personally what to believe so much as just presenting options and showing orthodox precepts. For example, these are basically sound advice, IMHO:
1) God is not a relative concept. We don't find Him. He finds us. He draws us unto Him.
2) Without the person of Jesus Christ, God as a concept can become relative. I would urge caution in this area, yet I respect your faith when you say that He may have planned it all that way! There is IMHO only one way between God and us, but He may have each and every one of us in a unique purpose! Organized belief of any kind can morph into cultic mind control and human ambition/self deification "in the name of God" rather quickly!
3) While admitting that the Bible is far from perfect on a word for word translation, I am unconvinced that it is but the product of human imagination and control. I believe that the character behind the book is the living God interacting with humanity. So why does He need this book to do this?
Well, do you trust your discernment enough to interact with Him any other way? Many claim to be able to find Him in the forest or at the beach. My only argument would be this: If they could do so and did so, I would be in agreement with the God that they found. Why? He has already found me and I believe that I know Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 9:03 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by lfen, posted 01-31-2005 5:00 AM Phat has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 96 of 121 (181987)
01-31-2005 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
01-30-2005 11:20 PM


Re: Matthew 1
So why does He need this book to do this?
Phat,
Have you also read any Upanisheds? Tao Te Ching? Discourses of the Buddha? Conversations with Ramana Maharshi?
Without the person of Jesus Christ, God as a concept can become relative.
Not sure how you are using or defining the word "concept" or "person".
I would say we can have a concept that there is an absolute, or a concept that things are relative. Not sure what it is you meant that something as a concept can become relative implying that something as a concept can be absolute. For me concepts are abstractions as thus always as concepts relative, though we may conceptually assert that there is an absolute.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 01-30-2005 11:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 01-31-2005 6:05 AM lfen has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 121 (181993)
01-31-2005 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by lfen
01-31-2005 5:00 AM


Re: Matthew 1
Ifen writes:
For me concepts are abstractions as thus always as concepts relative, though we may conceptually assert that there is an absolute.
Hi, Ifen! I can already see that there is no way to force you to see God as an absolute. Conceptually, yes. Practically, no. You are a 17 year old who does not want Daddy to give you any advice, not because you don't trust Daddys concepts, but because in your own mind the concepts have not yet been proven.
Again, perhaps God wants it this way....it may be a few years before you find the absolute certainty and reality of a living character. I say this to you not as a Daddy, but as a 17 year old who himself wanted to find out for himself what the nature of truth really was.
If a stranger comes up to me and offers to show me a path to enlightenment, do I internally trust them? For it is this that is the issue.
My trust needs a point of reference. When I was saved 12 years ago, Jesus Christ internally became my point of reference. I can no longer deny Him as a concrete absolute any more than I could deny my own Mother.
Still, as a Christian, I am not going to listen to just anyone who has or claims to have wisdom from God. Fred Phelps is (has) a devil. Mormon wisdom has never impressed me, perhaps since I never personally knew a Morman enough to trust their source. I now trust Brian enough to listen to him, even though he has admitted to me that his source originates from human wisdom.
Conversely, even though wmscott, for example, knows scripture quite well, I do not trust him not due to his personality but due to his source which originates with Jehovahs Witness theology.
Some Christians, even though they claim a source of origin from God as I understand God to be defined as--I will not trust.
When I was 17, my Daddy had some advice for me. I trusted my Daddy, but I wanted to find out life for myself, and did not listen to him.
I was not wrong, but he was in retrospect wise in his wisdom.
Conclusion: We all have an internal wisdom that we can trust.
This wisdom compels us to seek truth from some sources and to avoid other sources.
as Forrest Gump would say, "Thats all that I've got to say about that!"
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-31-2005 04:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by lfen, posted 01-31-2005 5:00 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by lfen, posted 01-31-2005 11:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 98 of 121 (182053)
01-31-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
01-31-2005 6:05 AM


Re: Matthew 1
An Eastern metaphor that I've found useful in the "search for truth" is that of ascending a mountain, the goal being the mountain peak. People may start anywhere at the base of the mountain, they could be on opposite sides and there are many paths up the mountain. Some paths are gradual, slow and winding back and forth, other paths are more direct but may involve scaling difficult cliffs, and so forth.
The Eastern teachers often recognize different types of people for whom certain approaches are better suited. Some people are devotional in nature and the practise of loving God in whatever form with rituals, prayers, songs, the Bhakti path is recommended. Our people express love in doing for others, serving God by serving other beings. Other people seek understanding and they look to philosophy and theology. Others still want to penetrate and see directly, experience directly truth for themselves.
Ramana Maharshi, for example, talked with Hindu's of many orientations, but Muslims, Christians, and seekers of all sorts came to him. He never sought to have anyone change their religion.
My primary repulsion with Western religions is the notion of the one exclusively true path of conceptual belief. The notion that my group has the truth and all other groups are not only wrong but under the influence of evil delusion from the devil etc.
It's a good thing you have a path that is meaningful to you. And there is no need to follow other's paths. On the other hand if you extrapolate that your path should be everyone's path. I consider that error. If you further extrapolate that all those who don't follow your path are somehow wrong, bad, dangerous, under evil influences, inferior, or whatever that I find a pernicious notion whether held by a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever sect or individual.
lfen

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 99 of 121 (182172)
01-31-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by lfen
01-29-2005 1:53 PM


Re: Back on the merry-go-round
Thank you Ifen, for that well bridled tirade.
Be assured that you are not alone in your small town experience: being brought up surrounded by well meaning idiots.
Were it not for the ridiculous doctrines and really bad Christians out there, I might never have abandoned the church and come to know the joyous freedom of independent Bible study.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by lfen, posted 01-29-2005 1:53 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by lfen, posted 02-01-2005 1:39 AM doctrbill has not replied
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 02-01-2005 5:46 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 100 of 121 (182178)
01-31-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Brian
01-30-2005 10:12 AM


Re: The Problem? Where is the solution?
Brian writes:
... how could he have a letter from the Sanhedrin to persecute Christians in Damascus? What possible influence did they have in Syria?
Was the synagogue not an international organization then, as now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-30-2005 10:12 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 5:41 AM doctrbill has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 101 of 121 (182189)
02-01-2005 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by doctrbill
01-31-2005 10:20 PM


Re: Back on the merry-go-round
doc,
You are most welcome! Thanks,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by doctrbill, posted 01-31-2005 10:20 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 102 of 121 (182218)
02-01-2005 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by doctrbill
01-31-2005 10:43 PM


Re: The Problem? Where is the solution?
Hi Bill,
It was yes, paul was said to have gone to the synagogue in Damascus (Acts 9).
But, this was also at the time of Pax Romana, when you were free to worship whoever you wanted to. A Jewish hit squad persecuting another group in Damascus doesn't ring true at all. Why allow Jews to persecute another faith's followers and not vice versa?
What influence would Jews have in Syria?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by doctrbill, posted 01-31-2005 10:43 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by doctrbill, posted 02-01-2005 8:21 AM Brian has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 121 (182220)
02-01-2005 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by doctrbill
01-31-2005 10:20 PM


Re: Back on the merry-go-round
doctrbill writes:
Were it not for the ridiculous doctrines and really bad Christians out there, I might never have abandoned the church and come to know the joyous freedom of independent Bible study.
Doc, I love Bible studies! If you throw one, I'm there!
P.S. Can I bring my friends? Hal and Lou Ya.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by doctrbill, posted 01-31-2005 10:20 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 121 (182225)
02-01-2005 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by lfen
01-30-2005 9:03 PM


Re: Matthew 1
Ifen writes:
My objection is the people claiming that their beliefs are what God wants me to believe. God has never told me this. Others like yourself have told me this.
Interesting, Ifen. It has been my experience that many people have also attempted to force me to believe certain ways that they assure me are sound. One of these ways is the open minded "all paths up the mountain" inclusiveness.
I say that there may be many paths up the mountain, but there is only one summit. I will be humble enough to not preach to you every sight that I see and feeling that I feel on the top of this mountain. I have tried to share the reality of the Lord who exists....alone....on the mountain top. Maybe I should let you climb at your own pace and in your own way.
Rest assured, however, that it is not metaphorically as if each of us climbs our own private mountain. To have a billion people on a billion mountaintops is nothing more than an equation of ye shall be as gods....There is but one Everest!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by lfen, posted 01-30-2005 9:03 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by lfen, posted 02-01-2005 11:21 AM Phat has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 105 of 121 (182245)
02-01-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Brian
02-01-2005 5:41 AM


Re: The Problem? Where is the solution?
The synagogue, as an international organization, would not recognize national (Syrian) boundaries or alien (Roman) rules of conduct. They were surely self-policing and must have considered the renegades (Christian sect) as within their jurisdiction and subject to their justice.
I think this is reasonable assumption and avoids an unnecessary attack on the NT. Lord knows there are plenty of other reasons to be skeptical of it.
On the other hand, this is an off the cuff response to your post and I have been known to eat my words.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 5:41 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Brian, posted 02-01-2005 9:58 AM doctrbill has replied

  
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