Jonah and the Whale.. a question.

Hi, Yep, and Jonah said no to God, but God bullied him into having to go to Nineveh, the choice was removed from the equation for Jonah. What choice did he have inside the whale? Yes he acted against it. God forced Jonah to do the exact opposite of what he wanted to do. Jonah wanted to go to Tarshish, which was in the opposite direction from Nineveh. Why not, what is the point in God giving us free will if we cannot follow that will? What choice? What choice? He was eventually bullied into going, the eventual outcome was the opposite to what he wanted. And why did Jonah obey God?Read the first two chapter and find out. Jonah was terrified for his life, he knew that God was acting against him, he knew that God had ‘hurled him into the deep’. He had no choice because he knew that God would have him end up in Nineveh regardless of what Jonah himself wanted.Read 1.1-3 The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."
3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD . Jonah’s choice was to go to Tarshish, he had even paid his fare, but did he end up there? No, because God intervened and forced Jonah to go to Nineveh, against his will, so Jonah’s free will choice was removed from him. Well maybe if the Bible had an ounce of credibility then more people would believe these tales. You mean like Jonah was forced to go to Nineveh against his will? Or not to even think about him at all.But, if God was a real being, then he could step in and force us to love him as he forced Jonah to go to Nineveh. This would influence our free choice of course. I mean if God was clever enough to give humans all the facts then we could make an informed choice based on all the evidence. But God chooses to remain invisible and silent in the real world, so how can anyone be blamed for not taking God seriously?Brian.

How can you have free will if you are punished with eternal fire for disobeying God? How is that love, that God punishes you with eternal fire if you reject him? What a wrathful and evil supreme being he must be to punish his own children even AFTER they have died.What happened to forgiveness? I'm sure that the majority of people if they went to some heaven and saw God would probably probably prostrate themselves and ask for forgiveness for not believing. Why not just let those who don't believe die and decay/ be recycled on the earth? God is not a rational loving being.

The free will choice comes from the FACT that we don't have physical evidence for God's existence. If God's hand reached out from the heavens and told you that he exists, your free will choices would be very limited. But he has left it up to us to first trust in him and then he will open our eyes and experiance him fully.
This whole idea about God being an evil god for sending us to hell for not believing in him has been a constant argument for atheist and theologians have answered it many times. Check it out on the web or pick up a book on it. If you don't feel like doing that than I can explain it.

It seems to be a really popular game for some Christians to tell us atheists what we believe or what our arguments are.The concept of eternal damnation is not an argument for not believing in God; it is an argument for not believing in one particular sect's version of God. And many theologians recognize this, which is why there are many theological arguments against the concept.The whole idea of a deity torturing certain individuals for all eternity has no bearing on whether such a deity, or any other kind of deity, exists. The question is why such a deity could be called "good". As an atheist, I acknowedge that, logically, such a deity could possibly exist. I merely agree with many Christians that such a deity should be called "evil" (except to its face, of course).On the other hand, even if such a sadistic deity were logically impossible, it would not preclude that some deity, maybe even some version of the Christian god, could possibly exist. Even an atheist like myself acknowledges that.Edited to correct a grammatical error.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 02-19-2005 16:34 AM

Jonah could have killed himself. I never said he had alot of good choices but he still had the choice.Cain made the choice to kill his brother Abel. Adam and Eve made the choice to eat the forbidden fruit.It was not what he initially wanted, yes, but he made his decision to go. Many other people failed where he succeeded. I'm pretty sure if God did the same thing to you, you probably would have said, "Screw you, God!"The credibility of the Bible has been well proven over the past century.When i mean forced on someone, i am refering to a god who would have created people that were more like robots. No real emotions. Everything programmed.God seems silent to you. But he feels real to me.And we all know that all the evidence in the world would never convince a die-hard atheist to believe in a supernatural being.God left small clues about his existence for those who searched for them. I once was an atheist. I knew about the bible and God and church. But I felt that the God of the bible was way to cruel to people to be a loving God. But I wanted to be an informed atheist and I started reading books by both sides. And now I'm a born again christian who debates on forums like this.The evidence is there.

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I once was an atheist.... But I wanted to be an informed atheist and I started reading books by both sides.

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That's interesting. I was once a born again, evangelical, fundamentalist Christian. But I wanted to be able to debate with non-believers so I, too, started reading books. Now I am an atheist. Funny how it worked out different for the two of us, no?

I don't remember saying that "all" atheist use this argument. I was simply refering to his argument. I have been to several atheist websites and read many of their books and some, not all, use this as an argument against the "Christian" God.The books I'm refering to do address the issue about God being a good or evil God. Not just for his existence but to simply show that it is not entirely impossible that a good God can exist and still punish people for not believing in him.One might say that it is wrong for a good God to punish people for their sins. I say that it is wrong for a perfect God to let those people, including me, to go unpunished.

That is interesting. I know of several other atheist who were christians before and vice-versa. It just comes down to us as individuals. Some people will come into these forums and become an atheist because of the well-placed arguments in here by atheist. Others will be turned to christianity because of a christians argument.
That's why I'm here. I don't think that I will ever convert any of you guys and you probably know that there is nothing you can say that will make me deny my faith. It's really about those people that don't post here but just look for answers.
Sorry for getting a little sappy.

Sounds like a semantics argument to me. I see no reason why a "perfect god" would have to punish people; in fact, it seems that allowing certain individuals to be tormented forever would be something far less than "perfect".Edited to add:
I just realized that this may be off-topic, the topic being the nature of free-will, not whether eternal damnation contradicts the idea of a good and just god. My apologies.This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 02-19-2005 17:00 AM

What I'm saying is that God is like the perfect judge. The perfect judge would know who did what and when and why. And would punish them according to their crime. No jury or lawyers would be needed. The "good" Judge would not. He would just let everyone do what they feel like doing because he is "good."

But, his initial choice, of going to Tarshish, was the free will choice that was taken from him, everything else was manipulated by God. Jonah wanted to go to Tarshish and God didn’t let him. And did God intervene, no! And did God intervene, no!Jonah made the choice to go to Tarshsih, did God intervene, YES!So you examples actually support my original claim. God allowed Adam and Eve to eat the fruit through their free choice and stood back and watched, hey we can now blame God for the Fall of Man, excellent.God can intervene to save the inhabitants of an insignificant little town yet stands back and watches the whole human race become cursed, what a great guy. So you essentially agree with what I am saying. He made his decision because it was the only choice he had if he wanted to live, he was inside a flaming sea monster!! Well this is a matter of faith as the entire Jonah story is filled with scientific and historical impossibilities. There is no evidence that the Ninevites abandoned their religion in the 8th century BCE, this has to be taken on faith as it cannot be taken on evidence. If God appeared to me I would be at the doctors as soon as possible. I disagree, if anything archaeology has undermined almost the entire Old Testament, certainly up to the end of Kings at least. This is what he wanted his prophets to be, unquestioning robots, and when they questioned they were manipulated by God, they had no choice, no free will. It’s amazing what people can imagine is real, the power of the mind is immense. It works the other way as well, no Christian can ever be convinced that God is a fairy tale character.The problem is, there is no evidence for God. If you search hard enough for anything you will find it. If you really search you can convince yourself of anything. I was once a Christian. Me too, and still do. Yes, it is obvious that God is a man made character. Best way to be, But there is informed and there is ‘informed’. So books led you to being a born again Christian?Which books would these be? Where?Brian.