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Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 80 (77991)
01-12-2004 10:52 AM


Dever writes
What Did the Bible Writers Know and When Did They Know It?
Interesting,
Dever writes that the central proposition of his book is very simple. "While the Hebrew Bible in its present, heavily edited form cannot be taken at face value as history in the modern sense, it nevertheless contains much history." He adds: "After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob credible 'historical figures.'" He writes of archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as having been "discarded as a fruitless pursuit." He is not saying that he believes that the biblical Moses never existed.
He is talking about what can be gathered from archaeological evidence.
About the historical Moses he writes:
the overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early
Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness.
A Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in southern Transjordan in the mid-late13th century B.C., where many scholars think the biblical traditions concerning the god Yahweh arose. But archaeology can do nothing to confirm such a figure as a historical personage, much less prove that he was the founder of later Israelite region.
About Leviticus and Numbers he writes that these are "clearly additions to the 'pre-history' by very late Priestly editorial hands, preoccupied with notions of ritual purity, themes of the 'promised land,' and other literary motifs that most modern readers will scarcely find edifying much less historical." Dever writes that "the whole 'Exodus-Conquest' cycle of stories must now be set aside as largely mythical, but in the proper sense of the term 'myth': perhaps 'historical fiction,' but tales told primarily to validate religious beliefs."
Dever writes about the attempt to explain the miracles described in Exodus as natural phenomena. About the crossing of the Red Sea he suggests that perhaps it was not really the Red Sea. "The correct rendering of the term yam sf " from the Hebrew Text in Exodus," should not be "Red Sea" but "Reed Sea." Writes Dever on page 16:
Some suggest that the Reed Sea was a shallow, marshy area somewhere where the northern section of the Suez Canal is today, where it was possible for people on foot to ford the water, but which would have bogged horses and heavy iron chariots down in the mud.
About the conquest of Transjordon, Dever writes:
... there cannot have been a king of Edom to have denied the Israelites access, since Edom did not achieve any kind of statehood until the 7th century B.C.
Dever describes various three theories on the presence of the Israelites in Canaan. One is the "conquest model," another "the peaceful infiltration model," and the third is the "peasant revolt model," this last model describing the origins of the early Israelite peoples and largely indigenous. Dever describes this last theory as now accepted by "virtually all scholars." On page 189, Dever writes:
If early Israel indeed constituted an agrarian movement with strong reformist tendencies driven by a new social ideal, it would not be unique.
Dever writes that he wishes that more would follow "the refreshing example" of Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple, near UCLA, who, in a Passover sermon, according to Dever, said:
The Truth is that virtually every archaeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all.
While Dever's discussion of Israelite origins differs very little from Baruch Halpern's THE EMERGENCE OF ISRAEL IN CANAAN, published over twenty years ago (Chico, CA: Scholars Press, 1983), it will be important for two reasons. First, it will serve as an updated text, in that it seeks to integrate archaeological data collected over the last twenty years into the discussion. And secondly, it seeks to use those data (which were not available to Mendenhall or Gottwald) to support a modified peasant's revolt theory.
Dever compares the hill country settlement to the establishment of the 19th-century Oneida Community, the New Harmony community in southwestern Indiana during the same period, and the 18th-century Shaker movement (p. 189), but finally admits that, in regard to the reasons behind the protoIsraelites' withdrawal and settlement, "my theory is speculative ... [with] little archaeological evidence to support it" (p. 179).
Another link ,
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:C7toRvkyVT4J...
Not all of Dever’s methods, however, are praiseworthy. He discards the first four books of the Pentateuch as composed of “legendary and even fantastic materials,” with the Exodus and Moses traditions existing as nothing more than late editorial additions that are not even “edifying, much less historical.” Dever fails to take seriously the archaeological work that tends to support the patriarchal and Exodus accounts, such as Kenneth Kitchen’s “The Patriarchal Age: Myth or History?” BAR (March/April 1995), Nahum Sarna's “Abraham in History,” BAR (Dec. 1977), John Currid’s Ancient Egypt and the Old Testament (Baker, 1997), James Hoffmeier’s Israel in Egypt (Oxford, 1997), Nahum Sarna’s “Exploring Exodus: the Oppression,” Biblical Archaeologist 49:2 (1986), or John Bimson’s Redating the Exodus and Conquest (Sheffield, 1978). While Dever might complain that these scholars are too conservative for his taste, it cannot be denied that they are working with the archaeological data.
The second millennium B.C. in Palestine is not nearly as well known or documented at this point as is the first millennium, and I suspect that Dever’s analysis of this period will be subject to drastic revision in the not-so-distant future.
These are my thoughts also.............
edited url to fix page width - The Queen
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]
[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-12-2004]

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 80 (78008)
01-12-2004 12:08 PM


As early as 13 centuries before the birth of Jesus, and 200 years before the birth of David, according to a stele now parked in the Cairo Museum, pharaoah Menapteh boasts of his armies' conquest of Israel. "Israel is laid waste . . . his seed is no more," the inscription reads.
The mere absence of hard archeological proof does not necessarily invalidate the Bible
Whoever wrote the Bible may have exaggerated their achievements for religious or dogmatic purposes.
The core of the problem, of course, is that archeology is as much an art as a science, with a good deal of conclusive weight attached to methodologies and dating protocols that are anything but bulletproof.
"There's nothing certain about archeology. If you want certainty, go into mathematics."
Herschel Shanks
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 33 of 80 (78010)
01-12-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stormdancer
01-12-2004 10:09 AM


Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Here is a reading list that I gave to an undergraduate student who was looking for an introduction to the debate on Israel's origin. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but two or three books from it will give some insight into the problems of harmonising the Hebrew Bible's narratives with the archaeological data.
I am sure that Consequent Atheist could probably improve this list as well as he has an excellent knowledge of the subject. (BTW, thankyou very much for the recommendation of Dever' book CA, I appreciate it and will try to get a look at it as soon as I have time, it is nice to see that Dever may be mellowing a little.)
If I were to recommend a few books that are not expensive and not too advanced I would say that Albright's The Archaeology of Palestine, Bright's History of Israel, Shanks' The Rise of Ancient Israel, and McNutt's Reconstructing the Society of ancient Israel would be a good intro that covers a good 60 years and illustrates how the debate has developed.
I will look at your link later and post a reply, I have just got home from work and have a few things to do.
Aharoni Y The Archaeology of the Land of Israel: From the Prehistoric Beginnings to the End of the first Temple Period SCM Press London 1982.
Ahlstrom G W The History of Ancient Palestine from the Palaeolithic Period to Alexander’s Conquest JSOT Press Sheffield 1993.
Albright W F The Archaeology of Palestine Penguin Books Harmondsworth 1949.
Albright W F From the Stone Age to Christianity: Monotheism and the Historical Process Doubleday New York 1957.
Albright W F The Israelite Conquest of Canaan in Light of Archaeology BASOR 71 1974 pp 11-23.
Alt A Essays on Old testament History and Religion Blackwell Oxford 1966.
Amiran D The Pattern of Settlement in Palestine IEJ 3 1953
Barr J Story and History in Biblical Theology SCM London 1980.
Bimson J Merneptah’s Israel and Recent Theories of Israelite Origins JSOT 49, 1991, pp 3-29.
Bimson J Redating the Exodus and Conquest JSOTsup Sheffield 1978.
Bright J A History of Israel SCM London 1972.
Callaway J A The 1968-69 Ai (Et-Tell) Excavations BASOR 196 1970 pp 7-31.
Castel F The History of Israel and Judah in Old Testament Times Paulist Press Mahwah1985.
Coote R B Early Israel: A New Horizon Fortress Press Minneapolis 1990.
Coote R B and Whitelam K W The Emergence of Early Israel in Historical Perspective Almond Press, Sheffield Academic Press Sheffield 1987.
Davies P R In Search of ‘Ancient Israel’ JSOT Sheffield 1992.
Dever W G Archaeological data on the Israelite Settlement: A review of recent works BASOR 284 pp 77-90.
Dever W G and Gitin S (eds) Recent Excavations in Israel: Studies in Iron Age Archaeology ASOR/Eisenbrauns Winona Lake.
Edelman D (ed) The Fabric of History: Text, Artefact and Israel’s past JSOT Sheffield 1991.
Finegan J Handbook of Biblical Chronology: Principles of Reckoning in the Ancient World and Problems of Chronology in the Bible Princeton University Press 1964.
Finkelstein I The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement IES Jerusalem
1988
Finkelstein I and Nadav Na’man (eds) From Nomadism to Monarchy: Archaeological and Historical Aspects of Early Israel IES Jerusalem 1994.
Flanagan J David’s Social Drama: A Hologram of Israel’s Early Iron Age Almond Press Sheffield.
Freedman D N and Graf D F (eds) Palestine in Transition: The Emergence of Ancient Israel Almond Press Sheffield 1983.
Frerichs E S and Lesko L H Exodus: The Egyptian Evidence Eisenbrauns Winona Lake 1997.
Frick F S The Formation of the State in Ancient Israel: A survey of Models and Theories Almond Press Sheffield.
Fritz V The Israelite ‘Conquest’ in Light of Recent Excavations at Khirbet el-Meshash BASOR 241 1981 pp 61-73.
Fritz V Conquest or Settlement? The Early Iron Age in Palestine Biblical Archaeologist 50 1987 pp 84-100
Fritz V and Davies P R The Origins of the Ancient Israelite States JSOTsup 228 Sheffield 1996.
Garbini G History and Ideology in Ancient Israel SCM London 1988.
Gottwald N K The Tribes of Yahweh, A Sociology of the Religion of Liberated Israel, 1250-1050 BCE SCM London 1979.
Grant M The History of Ancient Israel Charles Scribner and Sons London/New York 1984.
Hallo W W and Simpson W K The Ancient Near East: A History Brace Jovanovich New York 1971.
Halpern B The First Historians. The Hebrew Bible and History Harper and Row San Francisco 1988
Halpern B The Emergence of Israel in Canaan Scholars Press California 1983.
Hasel M G Israel in the Merneptah Stela BASOR 296 1994 pp 45-61.
Hauer C From Alt to anthropology: the rise of the Israelite State JSOT 39 1986 pp 3-15.
Hayes J and Miller J M Israelite and Judaean History SCM London 1977.
Herrmen S A history of Israel in Old Testament Times SCM London 1981.
Hopkins D C The Highlands of Canaan: Agricultural Life in the early Iron Age Almond Press Decatur 1985.
Hughes J Secrets of the Times: Myth and History in Biblical Chronology Sheffield Academic Press Sheffield 1990.
Jagersma H A History of Israel in the Old Testament Period SCM London 1983.
Kenyon K M Archaeology and the Holy Land Benn London 1979.
Kenyon K M The Bible and Recent Archaeology British Museum London 1978.
Knight D A and Tucker G M The Hebrew Bible and its Modern Interpreters Fortress Press Philadelphia 1985.
Lemche N P Early Israel. Anthropological and Historical Studies in the Israelite Society before the Monarchy Brill Leiden 1985.
Lemche N P Ancient Israel: A New History of Israelite Society JSOT Sheffield 1988
Mazar A Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10 000 -586 BCE Doubleday London 1990.
Mazar A Three Israelite Sites in the Hills of Judah and Ephraim BA 45 pp 167-78.
McNutt P M Reconstructing the Society of ancient Israel Westminster/John Knox Press Louisville 1999.
Mendenhall G E The Tenth Generation: The Origins of the Biblical Tradition The John Hopkins University Press Baltimore 1973.
Moran W L The Amarna Letters The John Hopkins University Press Baltimore 1992.
Noll K L Canaanite and Israel in Antiquity Sheffield Academic Press London/New York 2001
Noth M The History of Israel SCM Press London 1960.
Pritchard J B Ancient Near eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament Princeton University Press Princeton 1950.
Ramsay G W The Quest for the Historical Israel: Reconstructing Israel’s Early History John Knox Press/SCM London 1982.
Rowley H H From Joseph to Joshua Oxford University Press London 1950.
Sasson J M On Choosing Models for Recreating Pre-Monarchical Israel JSOT 21 1981 pp 3-24.
van Seters J Abraham in History and Tradition Yale University Press New Haven 1975.
Van Seters J In Search of History. Historiography in the Ancient World and the Origins of Biblical History Yale University Press New Haven 1983.
Shanks H The Rise of Ancient Israel Biblical Archaeology Society Washington 1992.
Shiloh Y The Four Room House: Its Situation and Function in the Israelite City IEJ 20 180-90.
Soggin J A A History of Israel from the Beginnings to the Bar Kochba Revolt AD 135 SCM Press London 1985.
Sparks K L Ethnicity and Identity in Ancient Israel Eisenbrauns Winona Lake 1998.
Stager L E The Archaeology of the Family in Ancient Israel BASOR 260 1985 pp1-35.
Thompson T L The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the historical Abraham Walter de Gruyter Berlin/New York 1974.
Thompson T L Early History of the Israelite people from the Written and Archaeological Sources Brill Leiden 1992.
De Vaux R The Early History of Israel Longman and Todd London 1978.
Weinstein J M The Egyptian Empire in Palestine: A Reassessment BASOR 241 pp 1-28.
Wieppert M The Settlement of the Israelite Tribes in Palestine SCM Press London 1971.
Wiseman D J (ed) Peoples from Old testament Times Oxford University Press London 1973.
If you have any questions at all, please do not hesitate to ask. This is a very complex area and takes a long time to become familiar with the material.
Cheers
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 80 (78049)
01-12-2004 2:42 PM


Holy Cow, Brian , thank you for the list.
Brian, Would it be to daunting a task for you to give me your perspective on this subject?
Have you formed a conclusion?
Who were the Israelites?
Where did they come from?
Do you believe in the Exodus?
Who is their God?
Historical facts for basic questions, you know what I mean?
I just want to see if we have formed similar conclusions.
Personally I would agree with Dever where he says,
"While the Hebrew Bible in its present, heavily edited form cannot be taken at face value as history in the modern sense, it nevertheless contains much history."
I would say I am a fence sitter.
The Myth of Ba'al. Seven tablets, written on both sides, five columns per side, contain the story. Unfortunately several were badly damaged during their almost 3200 years in the ground, so parts of the story are unclear. The language, however, is quite vivid, and in some cases very beautiful. Scholars now see that the writing style of the Torah is a continuity of that of the Canaanites, and certain expressions and descriptions are virtually identical, while some Canaanite Pagan vignettes have been rewritten in the Bible to support the newer religion. The language describing the deity YHWH shows that many of his characteristics are a combination of the Canaanite El and Ba'al.
Now I believe the above, just by studying the Bible and myth, I have not read a lot of books on the subject only the myths.
I believe that the deity YHWH and the Canaanite El and Ba'al are closely related .
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Brian, posted 01-12-2004 2:54 PM Stormdancer has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 35 of 80 (78051)
01-12-2004 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Stormdancer
01-12-2004 2:42 PM


Hi,
I will have to reply to your request tomorrow night, I am up to my eyes in work here, and it will take a fairly detailed reply from me.
All I can say is that I haven't really formed an overall opinion, I have quite a few conclusions about the smaller components of the debate,(things such as the 'types' of history contained in the Bible, archaeological data and anthropological models) but I think I will reserve an overal judgement for a while yet, though I am leaning toward the 'we will never know for sure' stance.
AT the moment I am not a fence sitter, I personally think that the Bible has been more of a hinderance than a help in this investigation, too many man hours have been spent trying to support the individual researcher's religious beliefs rather than investigating, for example, the archaeological data by itself rather than trying to shoehorn it to fit the bible narrative. I do not think the Bible accounts can be taken at face value either, but how many chances do you give a source before you discard it as unreliable?
There have been a few threads on the Exodus, you could search for these and red them in the meantime if you wish.
I will reply tomorrow, thanks for the reply.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Stormdancer, posted 01-12-2004 2:42 PM Stormdancer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Stormdancer, posted 01-12-2004 3:17 PM Brian has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 80 (78058)
01-12-2004 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Brian
01-12-2004 2:54 PM


Brian writes,
All I can say is that I haven't really formed an overall opinion, I have quite a few conclusions about the smaller components of the debate,(things such as the 'types' of history contained in the Bible, archaeological data and anthropological models) but I think I will reserve an overal judgement for a while yet, though I am leaning toward the 'we will never know for sure' stance.
Well, Brian that is where my head is at too, We wont ever know for sure, I agree.
I would add this however.
The Myth of Ba'al. Seven tablets, written on both sides, five columns per side, contain the story. Unfortunately several were badly damaged during their almost 3200 years in the ground, so parts of the story are unclear. The language, however, is quite vivid, and in some cases very beautiful. Scholars now see that the writing style of the Torah is a continuity of that of the Canaanites, and certain expressions and descriptions are virtually identical, while some Canaanite Pagan vignettes have been rewritten in the Bible to support the newer religion. The language describing the deity YHWH shows that many of his characteristics are a combination of the Canaanite El and Ba'al.
Now I believe the above, just by studying the Bible and myth, I have not read a lot of books on the subject only the myths.
I believe that the deity YHWH and the Canaanite El and Ba'al are closely related .
Brian writes,
AT the moment I am not a fence sitter, I personally think that the Bible has been more of a hinderance than a help in this investigation, too many man hours have been spent trying to support the individual researcher's religious beliefs rather than investigating,
I agree with that also, by fence sitter I did not mean, in a religious way, only that I believe it is an aid in researching and I would not totally want to discount it, the problem is of course weeding out fact from fiction.
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-12-2004]

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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 80 (78065)
01-12-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stormdancer
01-12-2004 12:08 PM


Hello Stormdancer,
quote:
Originally posted by Stormdancer
As early as 13 centuries before the birth of Jesus, and 200 years before the birth of David, according to a stele now parked in the Cairo Museum, pharaoah Menapteh boasts of his armies' conquest of Israel. "Israel is laid waste . . . his seed is no more," the inscription reads.
The "Mer-ne-ptah" or "Israel" stela (now Cairo 34025) does provide important information concerning the dating (or the veracity) of the exodus.
The stela is dated to the fifth year of Mer-ne-ptah (c. 1230 b.c.)and is one of three known records of Mer-ne-ptah's conquest of the Libyans. Cairo 34025 (the "Israel" stela), unlike the other two records, is a poetic hymn of praise rather than strictly historical in nature and thus includes praise for Mer-ne-ptah's wide ranging victories over various Asiatic peoples in the last "chorus" of the hymn. A section from this "chorus" reads:
quote:
Plundered is Cannaan with every evil;
Carried off is Ashkelon; siezed is Gezar;
Yanoam is made as that which does not exist;
Israel is laid waste, his seed is not; . . .
("Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament" James B. Prithard ed., Princeton University Press)
Of particular interest here is the fact that Israel is the only one among all of those named in this verse that is written with the Egyptian determinative indicating a "people" as opposed to a "place". Thus, the fact that a stela dating to c. 1230 refers to Egypt plundering the place Canaan and indicates that, at this time, Israel was considered a "people" rather than a settled country, does indeed provide important insights into any alleged exodus event.
Namaste'
Amlodhi
[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 80 (78068)
01-12-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Brian
01-12-2004 6:34 AM


Re: Hebrew/Midianite/Bedouin Connections
If for nothing other than art appreciation alone, visit this site: http://www.zaqen.com/web/IsraeliteImages.html
I am not advocating, just facilitating. There are more references to follow on this subject of unmistakably close associations (linguistic, cultural, familial structure, and theological) between "proto-Hebrews," Midianites, and Bedouins of Negev and Sinai.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-12-2004]

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 80 (78073)
01-12-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ConsequentAtheist
01-11-2004 6:42 PM


Hebrew/Midianite/Bedouin Connections
Again, the following is offered as information only, and I am not espousing any belief in the opinions of the author. I submit the information in response to an earlier request to support someone else’s theory of a Hebrew/Bedouin invasion of Canaan.
The pastoral-nomadic adaptation to the deserts of the Near East have included four prominent cultural traits for thousands of years: (1) the pastoral-military complex, (2) the importance of hospitality and honor, (3) the bint 'amm marriage system, (4) polygynous households and (5) prominent roles for independent women.
Hospitality and honor are central values in Bedouin culture as they were to the Hebrews. Because pastoral societies typically occupy marginal environments such as the deserts of the Near East, they are usually not completely self-sufficient, and pastoralists must obtain some important goods that they cannot produce themselves from their sedentary, agricultural neighbors.
The marriage patterns of the Patriarchs also remind one of those practiced by the Bedouin in recent times, a pattern called the bint 'amm, a preference for a man to marry within his own lineage by marrying his father's brother's daughter. By the standards of the non-Bedouin peoples of the Near East, such marriages would be considered incestuous, since both husband and wife were both descended from the same paternal grandfather and were therefore closely related members of the same patrilineage. In many languages, such cousins refer to each other as ‘brother’ and ‘sister’, but among the Bedouin such marriages renewed, generation after generation, the solidarity between members of the same patrilineage who might otherwise not see one another for years in their nomadic wanderings through the desert, a solidarity that time and distance might otherwise weaken.
"The marriage patterns of the Patriarchs also involved marriage within the patrilineage. We learn, for instance, that Abraham's wife Sarah was his ‘sister’, the daughter of Abraham's father Terah. Similarly, Nahor marries his brother Haran's daughter Milcah, Isaac marries Rebekkah, Isaac's father's, brother's son's daughter, Abraham's son Isaac's son Esau marries his grandfather Abraham's son Ishmael's daughter, and Jacob marries two sisters, Rachel and Leah, who are his father Isaac's father's brothers son's son's daughters. In each case, the marriage unites two husbands and wives that are all descendants of Terah and members of the same patrilineage.
The Bedouin lifestyle was characterized by prominent roles for women, like those of the prominent and independent women of the Patriarchal families. Sarah, for instance, is portrayed as a strong-willed woman who first insists that Abraham bear a child by her servant, Hagar, and then in a fit of jealously demands that Abraham send Hagar and her son away into the desert (Genesis 16:1-7). Hagar herself demonstrates the ability to cope with the rigors of the desert alone with her son Ishmael (Genesis 16:7-14; 21:15-21). Rebekah does not shy away from addressing Abraham's servant at the well, even though he is a stranger (Genesis 24:18-19). And Miriam is a woman who was able to boldly call her brother Moses to task when she felt he was behaving wrongly (Numbers 12:1-2a, where the Hebrew verb is in the feminine singular form, indicating that Miriam, not Aaron, was the spokesperson).
"The women of the Patriarchal period are consistently portrayed as the strong-willed, independent, and influential daughters of the desert that were typical of the women of the pastoral nomads of the Near Eastern deserts down to modern times!
From: http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/patriarchs.htm

This message is a reply to:
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Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 80 (78076)
01-12-2004 5:33 PM


Thank you for the info. Amlodhi.
Abshalom, interesting, I am particularly interested in the cult prostitution.

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 80 (78077)
01-12-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Amlodhi
01-12-2004 4:28 PM


Bedouins/Hebrews/Midianites Exit Egypt
Again, as in the two post just above, I offer the following information gleened from Websites regarding the current topic:
As the Exodus account implies an attempt by some Semitic tribes to leave Egyptian Sinai to enter into Canaan, we soon find the evidence for the one and only such attempt. This only recorded exodus attempt by Bedouin tribes from Sinai trying to enter Canaan took place at the end of the short reign of Ramses I. Immediately after the death of Ramses I c.1333 BC, we find evidence of some Semitic Bedouin tribes of Sinai, called Shasu by the Egyptians, attempting to cross the Egyptian borders to Canaan.
On the east side of the northern wall of the great Hypostyle Hall in Amun's temple at Karnak we find two series of scenes, which are distributed symmetrically on either side of the entrance to the temple, representing the wars of Seti I who succeeded Ramses I on the throne. The first of these wars, chronologically, is found at the bottom row of the east wall and represent the war against the Shasu. After setting out on the route between the fortified city of Zarw and Gazaknown in the Bible as 'the way of the land of the Philistines' (Exodus 13:17), and passing the fortified water stations, "pushing along the road in the Negeb, the king scatters the Shasu, who from time to time gather in sufficient numbers to meet him." One of these actions is depicted in this relief as taking place on the desert road. Over the battle scene stands the inscription: "The Good God, Sun of Egypt, Moon of all land, Montu in the foreign countries ... like Baal, ... The rebels, they know not how they shall (flee); the vanquished of the Shasu (becoming like) that which existed not."
In this campaign it seems that Seti pursued the Shasu into the northern Sinai area and Edom, which includes 'the waters of Meribah,' as well as the land of Moab at the borders between Sinai and Canaan/Jordanbefore returning to continue his march along the northern Sinai road between Zarw and Gaza until he reached Canaan itself. Just across the Egyptian border he arrived at a fortified town whose name is given as Pe-Kanan, which is believed to be the city of Gaza.
Another scene has the following inscription over the defeated Shasu: "Year 1. King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Menma-re. The destruction which the mighty sword of Pharaoh made among the vanquished of the Shasu from the fortress of Zarw to Pe-Kanan, when His Majesty marched against them like a fierce-eyed lion, making them carcasses in their valleys, overturned in their blood like those that exist not.
And although Seti I was able to stop the Shasu leaving Sinai, forty years later, during the 20th year of Ramses II, we find them already in Canaan.
Shasu was the name given by the Egyptians to the Beduin of Sinai, known in both the Bible and the Quran as the Midianites, allies of Moses. It seems that the Israelites were only a small part of a large Semitic attempt to leave Egypt for Canaan.
Source: Ahmed Osman/Out of Egypt

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 42 of 80 (78089)
01-12-2004 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Stormdancer
01-12-2004 10:13 AM


CAtheist,
The book you posted looks like it is exactly what I am looking for.
I enjoyed it. Just be advised that it is somewhat polemical in nature. You might benefit from reading Finkelstein first if you haven't already done so. BTW, Archaeology and the Bible by John C.H. Laughlin is also worth owning. What I find most instructive is the degree of scholarly consensus among Syro-Palestinian Archaeologists, and that consensus dismisses the Exodus/Covenant/Conquest narrative as fictive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Stormdancer, posted 01-12-2004 10:13 AM Stormdancer has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 43 of 80 (78101)
01-12-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Abshalom
01-12-2004 5:40 PM


Re: Bedouins/Hebrews/Midianites Exit Egypt
Again, as in the two post just above, I offer the following information gleened from Websites regarding the current topic: ...
How kind of you to offer yet another example of cherry-picking fringe speculation to match your presupposition. The reference is entitled 'An Anthropologist Looks at the Judeo-Christian Scripture', from 'Crapo's World'. After reading this silliness, it remains unclear whether the Anthropologist is this Crapo, or whether it refers to the sole reference, i.e.,
Redford, Donald. (1992). Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.
Let's give Abshalom the benefit of the doubt and focus on Redford, whose scholarship is clearly worthy of respect. Let's also assume that Abshalom has never taken the time to actually read Redford's comments on the Exodus - that might require far too much intellectual effort and honesty. Luckily, I have a copy on hand. Allow me to quote:
quote:
The event is suppose to take place in Egypt, yet Egyptian sources know it not. On the morrow of the Exodus Israel numbered approximately 2.5 million (extrapolated from Num. 1:46); yet the entire population of Egypt at that time was only 3 to 4.5 million! The effct on Egypt must have been cataclysmic -- loss of a servile population, pillaging of gold and silver (Exod. 3:21-22, 12:31-36), destruction of an army -- yet at no point in the history of the country during the New Kingdom is there the slightest hint of the traumatic impact such an event would have on economics or society.
[and later ...]
... we can now genuinely speak of unanimity of the evidence. Whoever supplied the geographic information that now adorns the story had no information earlier than the Saite period (seventh to sixth centuries B.C.). The eastern Delta and Sinai he describes are those of the 26th Dynasty kings and the early Persian overloards: his toponyms reflect the renewed interest in the eastern frontier evidence for this period by fort building and canalization. He knows of "Goshen" of the Qedarite Arabs, and a legendary "Land of Ramessses." He cannot locate the Egyptian court to anything but the largest and most famous city in his own day in the northeastern Delta, namely Tanis, the royal residence from about 1075 to 725 B.C., ...
-- Egypt, Cannan, and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford
[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Abshalom, posted 01-12-2004 5:40 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 1:01 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 80 (78144)
01-13-2004 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by ConsequentAtheist
01-12-2004 8:42 PM


Re: Bedouins/Hebrews/Midianites Exit Egypt
Thank you, Connie, for giving me the benefit to once again see you provide the Donald Redford quote of which you seem so enamoured. You may assume that I had taken the time to actually read Redford's comments on the Exodus when you previously cut and pasted the exact same two paragraphs on December 30, 2003, in Post #12 of the "No Stealing" topic just two short weeks ago. It is indeed lucky that you still have a right index finger to click, copy, and paste so that my intellect can once again be so challenged. Before you redundantly paste the quote again, could you possibly remove the extra esses from Rameses's name for your dear Mr. Redford.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-13-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-12-2004 8:42 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-13-2004 6:47 AM Abshalom has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 45 of 80 (78168)
01-13-2004 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Abshalom
01-13-2004 1:01 AM


Re: Bedouins/Hebrews/Midianites Exit Egypt
Thank you, Connie, ..
That's a bit childish.
You may assume that I had taken the time to actually read Redford's comments on the Exodus when you previously cut and pasted the exact same two paragraphs on December 30, 2003, in Post #12 of the "No Stealing" topic just two short weeks ago.
So now you've managed to read the comments and evade/ignore the arguments twice in succession.
It is indeed lucky that you still have a right index finger to click, copy, and paste so that my intellect can once again be so challenged.
Truthfully, there was no intent to challenge that for which I've seen no evidence. I simply find it disingenuous that you would dismiss Dr. Redford's position while referencing an article relying solely of Dr. Redford.
Before you redundantly paste the quote again, could you possibly remove the extra esses from Rameses's name for your dear Mr. Redford.
Also a bit childish ... and ignorant, given that any representation could only be a transliteration. In this case, the text is correctly quoted; see Redford, page 409. See also, for example:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 1:01 AM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Abshalom, posted 01-13-2004 8:27 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
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