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Author Topic:   Passover Mystery
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 80 (78865)
01-16-2004 11:31 AM


Okey Dokey Brian, thank you.
I have some of the books now, Dever makes some interesting observations.
I was really happy he spent so much time on the Queen Of heaven in his book, " What Did The Biblical Writers Know And When Did They Know It."
Heres my question, in this book he shows some archeological evidence of female goddess figurines, the archeologist attribute these zoomorphic artifacts found in a cave to the Israelites in Jerusalem, ca late 7th century ......
Now I was wondering ,
Would there not be found similar artifactual evidence to support the presence of the supposedly large amount of Israelites in Egypt?
Abshalom, by the way,
Didn't you ask me to discuss a certain topic by starting a new thread? I forgot where?
OH, and I want to add, in this book it is the first time I ever heard of , "Deuteronomistic propaganda," How delightfully interesting ...
It would seem Dever and I see very much eye to eye on the Great Mother issue.
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-16-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Abshalom, posted 01-16-2004 12:54 PM Stormdancer has not replied
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-21-2004 8:16 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 80 (78878)
01-16-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Stormdancer
01-16-2004 11:31 AM


[Storm:] "Abshalom, by the way,
Didn't you ask me to discuss a certain topic by starting a new thread? I forgot where?"
Yeah, you did, and so did everyone else. "That Wacky Canaanite Pantheon" is not in the top 100, and I forgot which category I started it in anyway. My "Post-Armegeddon Space Program" is well on it's way to crashing, too. Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Stormdancer, posted 01-16-2004 11:31 AM Stormdancer has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 63 of 80 (78941)
01-16-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Abshalom
01-15-2004 10:50 AM


Re: Those Evasive Proto-Israelite Foot Soldiers
Me: "I was responding to your statement that "... even some rather radical scholars would take seriously the notion that some of these 'Shasu of Yhw' were among the tribal peoples who became early Israel, and that they may indeed have been guided through the desert by a charismatic, shiekh-like leader with the Egyptian name of 'Moses'. In folk religion these pre-Israelite traditions, partly mythological, may have survived well into the late Monarchy."
But how is a Dever reference to what "some rather radical scholars" might belief equivalent to a Dever statement of belief, i.e., where and when did it become "his folk-Moses theory" to defend?
..., I have a more wacky idea for a thread that may appear shortly."
Do you mean 'theory' as in testable (and, thereby falsifiable) explanation, or 'theory' as in wild-ass speculation reminiscent of bad science fiction? I just hope that you don't resurrect Moses as some Pharoah or space alien. It's been done to death.
Peace in Canaan.
That would be nice. I may have a Jerusalem Bar Mitvah to attend in 18 months. Unfortunately, ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Abshalom, posted 01-15-2004 10:50 AM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Abshalom, posted 01-16-2004 7:26 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 80 (78944)
01-16-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ConsequentAtheist
01-16-2004 7:19 PM


Re: Those Evasive Proto-Israelite Foot Soldiers
Issue #1: Okay, I get what you meant. My mistake.
Issue #2: Don't worry, my topic is falling like a rock through the Top 40, and is unlikely to resurrect.
Issue #3: Have a safe and productive journey, and an equally speedy and safe return.
Mazel tov, Chavar
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-16-2004]
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-16-2004]
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-16-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 01-16-2004 7:19 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 65 of 80 (79740)
01-21-2004 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Stormdancer
01-16-2004 11:31 AM


Hi Stormdancer,
Sorry for the delay, I have been meaning to reply for about a week now, but with work and other things I haven't had the chance.
I have given a very very brief outline of what I think about the questions you asked, if you would like to discuss them in more detail then let me know and we can examine one at a time. I was going to give a detailed answer here but I had around 30 pages typed up in Word so I thought I better condense things a little.
Anyway, to answer your questions:
Who were they?
It is difficult to say exactly who the Israelites were, the only real clues we have are in the Bible. To find out who the Israelites were would require us to do what any historian should do, examine the sources and decide what evidence is credible and usable for answering our question. What are the sources for reconstructing the origins of ancient Israel? Well, if we examine the evidence from archaeology we would have no reason to assume that the people known as Israel appeared on the scene in ancient Palestine. In fact, by using the name ‘Israel’ in association with the Iron Age means to draw on the other main source of evidence, the written sources. The written sources relevant for dealing with ancient Israel fall into two categories, materials of various kinds collected in the Hebrew Bible and certain nonbiblical documents (e.g. royal inscriptions). Most of the nonbiblical documents may be considered first-hand evidence in that they were written soon after the events which they report. Unfortunately, they provide only occasional references to Israel, and without prompting from the Hebrew Bible these references would not tell us much. (Miller, J Maxwell, Is it Possible to Write a History of Israel without the Hebrew Bible? in Edelman Diana V, The fabric of History (JSOT) Sheffield Academic Press, Sheffield 1991. p.94)
Without prompting from the Hebrew Bible, for example, no one would ever have read the hieroglyphic name on the Merneptah Stele as ‘Israel’ and to distinguish it as the same ‘Israel’ of the Moabite and Assyrian version of the name that do not turn up until 350 years later. Historians probably would make a connection between ‘Omri king of Israel’ of the Mesha Inscription, ‘Jehu mar Humri’ in three of Shalmaneser’s inscriptions, and the references to the ‘land of bit-Humria’ in Tiglath-pileser's records. But I don’t think they would read ‘Ahab of Sir-‘i-la-a-a’ in Shalmaneser's Monolith Inscription as ‘Ahab the Israelite’ or recognise that Samaria, which also turns up occasionally in other Assyrian contexts, was the capital of ‘Omri land’ rather than some other place. Even if they did, the general impression gained would have to be that Israel was a small kingdom, located somewhere in the vicinity of Damascus or the Phoenician coast, apparently founded by one Omri during the first half of the ninth century and surviving to the latter half of the eighth century. (Miller p.94)
If we relied solely on the archaeological data, we would not be thinking of Israel in terms of Early Iron Age settlement patterns in the central Palestinian hill country because there is nothing at all ‘about the potsherds or wall lines that cries out ‘Israelite’ (Miller p.97). Instead, the search would focus on Iron Age II, or on southern Lebanon or perhaps even Galilee, and would involve widely conflicting views regarding the location of Samaria.
The reason, the sole reason, why we are focussing on things like settlement patterns, pastoral nomads, and economic and technological models is really down to the fact that in the past we have relied far too much on the Hebrew Bible, and the Hebrew Bible has let us down time and time again. Although we are beginning to focus on the archaeological evidence, or the extrabiblical sources, or a combination of the two, it is still the Hebrew Bible that dictates the parameters of the ongoing discussion regarding the origin and early history of Israel. Any time historians, archaeologists, sociologists, or whoever speak of Israelite tribes in the central Palestinian hill country at the beginning of Iron Age I, or about the united monarchy, or about two contemporary kingdoms emerging from this early monarchy, they are presupposing information that comes from, and only from, the Hebrew Bible (Miller p.95).
In my opinion, the Hebrew Bible has undoubtedly hindered the progress or archaeologist and anthropologists who have been trying to reconstruct Israel’s past. But we have to be realistic, without the Hebrew Bible no one would even dream that Israel was ever in Egypt, or wandered the Sinai and camped at Kadesh-Barnea for 38 years, we would not, even for a second, consider that there had ever been a unified conquest of Palestine in the late 13th century BCE. These ‘historical’ events come only from the Bible, no one else even noticed a thing.
I find this lack of evidence very hard to believe, look t the sort of things spoken about in the Bible in relation to Israel’s involvement with Egypt, there are some pretty epic events there, yet there is only one mention of an ‘Israel’ in all of the surviving Egyptian records, and this reference does not provide anything to support Israel in Egypt. Also, surrounding countries are suspiciously silent about Israel’s existence. It is unusual that Israel is only mentioned once in Egyptian sources, since Israel was allegedly a neighbour of ancient Egypt’s and all other Canaanite inhabitants are well attested in many Egyptian texts (El Amarna and Mari for example). Also, these other Canaanite ‘neighbours’ of Israel show little or no interest in the word ‘Israel’ either. When they do mention Israelite kings, mainly in the neo-Assyrian writings, the almost never call them Israelite kings, they invariably call them by the dynastic name of ‘bit humri’, which meant ‘The House of [king] Omri’.
Even when using the Hebrew Bible it is difficult to identify who the Israelite were as the information can sometimes be confusing. The Bible identifies the Israelites as an ethnic group that descended from the 12 sons of a man called Jacob, each son being the head of a tribe. Jacob’s fathering of twelve sons who each father a tribe is clearly an eponymic legend. Anthropologists have discovered that eponymic legends are common in many ancient societies. The ethnic identity of a group is defined by telling a story of kinship. Normally, the story does not really reflect a biological reality it reflects a social or political unity. When groups of people enter into relationship with one another, they begin to cooperate for agricultural purposes, mutual defence, and so on, they sometimes express their alliance by telling a tale of kinship. The primary function of this kind of story is to create and sustain a sense of community identity. Most of these stories are creative inventions. The kinships are invented strictly for the purpose of community identity, not because the people involved are actually related biologically. But the story is not a ‘lie’ since members who tell the story know that it is an invention.
Ancient Israel was more than likely not an ethnic group that descended from one man and his wife, it was more likely a loose collection a people who could identify with each other through a common purpose, political or social, and they then had this eponymic legend to unite the group. The biological relationships recorded by the Bible authors were not the principal part of most Bible stories, the artificial genealogies in the Bible prove this, for example Zerubbabel who is the son of Shealtiel in Ezra 3.2, but he becomes the son of Pediah in I Chronicles 3.19. Another example is in the New Testament, in which the family tree of Joseph, father of Jesus, is traced from David's son Solomon in Mt. 1.1-17, but is traced from David’s son Nathan in Luke. 3.23-38 which results in many of the names conflicting in the two genealogies (Christians perform wonderful textual gymnastics to deny this of course).
Another problem with identifying an ethnic group that came to be known as Israel is the different ways in which the Bible makes use of the term ‘tribes of Israel’, this shows that the biblical authors were aware of the fluid nature of social and political relationships. Biblical writers often speak of 12 tribes of Israel, but the exact names of those 12 tribes change from passage to passage. Sometimes Israel includes a tribe called Levi (e.g. Deut. 27:13), other times Levi is not listed as a tribe. In order to preserve the number 12, the tribe of Joseph is eliminated each lime that Levi is missing, and they are replaced by two other tribes. Ephraim and Manasseh, the two ‘sons’ of Joseph (e.g. Num. 1.5-15). It gets even more complicated, however. Sometimes there are fewer than 12 tribes and their names do not correspond to the traditional names: Judges 5 lists only 10 tribes, and includes the ‘tribes’ of Machir and Gilead. Missing from the list are the more famous tribes of Judah and Joseph, as well as the tribes of Manasseh, Simeon, Levi and Gad. Evidently, biblical writers recognised that the concept of ‘sons’ of Israel was a metaphor for a complex and ever-changing process of social and political affiliation.
‘Israel’, then, is primarily a social or political term, though its exact meaning seems to have shifted over time. Early in the Iron Age Israel seems to have been a term of political affiliation among loosely related tribal groups, as in Judges 5. Later, Israel became the label for a monarchy, the Kingdom of Israel, which ruled over portions of Palestine's Cisjordan Highlands. After that kingdom was destroyed by the Neo-Assyrians in the eighth century BCE, Israel seems to have become an alternate name for another monarchy, the Kingdom of Judah in the southern Cisjordan Highlands.
Where did they come from?
It would depend on when we believe ‘Israel’ began. One very large difficulty here is that there is no telling exactly when ‘Israel’ came into distinct existence in Palestine (Halpern B, The Emergence of Israel in Canaan. Scholars Press, Chico California, 1983. p.81). I would say that the Exodus account in the Hebrew Bible suggests that all Israel came out of Egypt. Technically, Israel should have begun with Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, as it is from his 12 sons that the Israel that came out of Egypt descended. We should also remember that the Israelites should be identified separate from the Hebrews, although all Israelites were Hebrews, not all Hebrews were Israelites.
This claim that Israel came out of Egypt has some very serious problems, I don’t wish to labour the point but there are no references to the Israelites in any surviving Egyptian literature nor are there any references or artefacts from archaeology that indicate the Israelites were ever in Egypt.
I also think a very very important point is that the Hebrew Bible itself is totally ignorant to the fact that Egypt had a very large presence in Palestine, the Bible never mentions Egypt as being in Palestine. Also, the small villages of the central highlands that have been allocated to the Israelites show no signs at all that the inhabitants were ever in Egypt.
According to the latest archaeological and anthropological data they came from within Canaanite society. There is no sign of a break in the material culture of the central highlands, all the pottery types of the late bronze age/early Iron age that have been found in these settlements have also been found in the Canaanite city states. What is more, any apparently new elements that were once believed to have entered Palestine along with the Israelites, for example, the four roomed house, water cisterns and rim collared jars, have since been found in other areas of Palestine, and also in areas that have no association with the Israelites.
Finally, the conquest narrative presented in the Bible is totally and utterly rejected by the archaeological evidence, so many of the cities that were said to be conquered by Joshua’s armies have been found to have been uninhabited when the Bible says that conquest happened. Bill Dever has concluded that only 2 out of the 19 sites that have possible identifications with the Joshua narratives (Hazor and Bethel) actually have evidence of destruction levels in the 13th century BCE (Israel, History of (Archaeology and the ‘Conquest’), The anchor Bible Dictionary 1992).
So I would say that we do not know for certain where the Israelites came from, but it looks highly likely that the emerged from within Palestine itself.
Who was their God?
Regarding their God, it really isn’t a cut and dry case of the Israelites always being worshippers of YWHW, most Christians that I know appear to think that Israel has always worshipped Yahweh, this is not the case.
Equating YHWH only with the Israelites is a mistake that many people make, but it has to be remembered that not all YHWH worshipers were Israelites. There really is no essential association between the people called ‘Israel’ and a God whose personal name is YHWH. The Bible itself is evidence that the Israelites had not always worshipped YHWH. The Book of Exodus tells us that the patriarchs worshipped El Shaddai (6:3) and that YWHW worship only began with Moses. This is a fairly common theme among religious groups that have combined several gods into a single God. The names of each original God become the multiple names of the one God, Hinduism is another example of this. The authors of the early books of the Bible were obviously aware that a multiplicity of gods had been combined into the one entity, and that the YHWH element was a latecomer to the Israelite faith.
The word Israel is a theophoric name, ‘yisra-‘el’ and demonstrates that the early Israelites did not worship YHWH. There have been different interpretations of what ‘Israel’ means, ‘El strives’ or ‘El is just’ or ‘Struggle with El’ are a few that come to mind. The important thing here is that the divine element of Israel is ‘El’ and not ‘YWHW’.
If the name had been Yahwistic rather than Elistic it would be written yisra-yahu. In English it would have been Israiah (K L Noll, Canaan and Israel in Antiquity Sheffield Academic Press, London 2001).
It seems that the bible retains a memory that Israel’s God was called El Shaddai and later He became known as YWHW, it is up to the individual if they want to believe that these are two names for the same God or are two different gods. There is evidence to support both views. El is of course the chief god of the Canaanite pantheon, but El is also a general Semitic word for ‘god’. Most people that I have spoke to like to take the use of ‘El’ in the general sense of the word, i.e, El means ‘God’ and YWHW is his name, but I don’t think it is as straightforward as this, for example, we have references in the Hebrew Bible at Genesis 33:20 and 46:3 to’el’elohe yisra’el which accurately translates as ‘El, the God of Israel’ (Bright John, A History of Israel, SCM Press 1972 edition). So, again, it is up top the individual what they want to believe, but I think there is good evidence to support the belief that the Patriarchs worshipped ‘El’ in various forms and that the worship of Yahweh by ‘Israel’ was a fairly late development.
I think there is some circumstantial evidence to support a theory that the Israelites brought YHWH worship from Sinai into Palestine, although any nomadic or semi nomadic Canaanite group may have done this. There are a series of geographical locations associated with YHWH in biblical poetry that places the YWHW to the south and east of ‘historical’ Israel and Judah. Based on this observation and others, some scholars believe that somehow the worship of Yahweh, had its origin south and east of Israel and Judah in the region which today includes the northern part of Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan and Israel.
Here are some verses that provide evidence that YWHW was only associated with a certain region of the ancient near east. Of course, in those days each region had its own god, so YHWH was not different from any other god.
Deuteronomy 33:2
He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.
Judges 5:4-5 "O LORD , when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water.
The mountains quaked before the LORD , the One of Sinai, before the LORD , the God of Israel.
Habakkuk 3:3
God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth.
I think the Bible itself supports the view that YWHW arrived in Palestine from the south east because the primary site of theophany for Yahweh is Mount Sinai. Not only is YWHW associated with this area in the oldest poetic texts (see the examples above) but in Exodus 19, which is fairly late addition to the text, YWHW is still associated with Sinai. This is very interesting because there was a tendency to try and move YWHW’s principle theophany to Mount Zion in Jerusalem. According ot the Zion tradition, Solomon’s Temple was YWHW’s dwelling place forever:
1 Kings 8:13
I have indeed built a magnificent temple for you, a place for you to dwell forever.
Kyle McCarter writes:
Why, then, didn't Mt. Zion displace Sinai altogether? The only explanation I know is that the old Sinai tradition was so venerable and well known, that it was so persistent and authentic, that it couldn't be suppressed. ( in Shanks The Rise of Ancient Israel Biblical Archaeology Society, Washington 1992, p.128)
Another indication that Yahwism originated south and east of Judah is the Midianite tradition. In the Exodus story Moses flees from Egypt into the wilderness and has his meeting with Yahweh. The tradition was that the first encounter between Yahweh and the Israelites was in Midian, Midian being the name used in the Exodus story for this same region. This takes place in Exodus 2 and 3, where Moses marries the daughter of a man named Jethro. Jethro is a Midianite priest, and at one point (Exodus 18:11) Jethro says that Yahweh is the greatest of the gods. Exodus 6 shows that according to one part of the biblical tradition the God of Israel revealed his name Yahweh for the first time in Midian. In other words, even the Bible itself suggests that, in one sense, Yahwism originated south and east of Judah. (McCarter p.129)
I would say then that there is a good indication that Yahwism originated in the south east, whether it arrived in Palestine with the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible there is no way to tell. That Canaanites regularly followed nomadic pastoral routes through the south east and into Egypt is well supported in non-biblical texts, it is possible that some of these groups brought the idea back to Palestine with them.
Was there an Exodus?
No.
But to elaborate, although the Exodus, as portrayed in the Hebrew Bible, is not supported by archaeological and textual evidence, I believe that there are little ‘snippets’ in the myth that do reflect accurate history. As Dever says though, we have to weed these ‘kernels of history’ out from among the fictional ‘history’ of the Hebrew Bible.
The problem for me is that the Exodus account is severely lacking in support, the epic claims made by Hebrew Bible should have left some ‘fingerprints’ in the archaeological record, but they have left none.
I also agree with Dever when he says .. ’And with the new models of indigenous Canaanite origins for early Israel, there is neither place nor need for an Exodus from Egypt’ (Dever W. Is there any archaeological evidence for the Exodus? in Frerichs E S and Lesko L H Exodus: The Egyptian Evidence Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake 1997).
If we take the information in the Bible that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years then there is a surprisingly meagre amount of Egyptian references in the Exodus account. Moses is clearly a part of an Egyptian name, goodness knows what the first half of Moses name would have been, but there are also other Egyptian names such as Hophni, Phineas, Shiprah and Puah. I find it surprising that the main Egyptian character, the pharaoh, is not identified, you would think that such an important figure would be clearly identified by the author of the narrative but we have to guess who it is that ruled Egypt at the time of the alleged event. So we can start of a list of historical kernels by saying that some of the names given in the Bible’s Exodus account are Egyptian, and this could suggest that there is some truth in it.
Although precise references to the enslavement in Egypt are very rare, the names of the cities in Exodus 1:11, Pithom and Rameses, have been identified by archaeology as being located at Tell el-Maskhuta or Tell el-Retabe, and Tell el’Dab’a respectively. There are clear problems with supporting what the Bible says about these cities, but these cities do show a substantial Canaanite or Asiatic presence in the so-called patriarchal period and that he two were rebuilt in the Ramesside period (Dever p.71). The mention of these cities does lend some support to the theory that at least some of the elements of the Exodus myth stemmed from ancient Egypt. The one certain thing about the rare Egyptian evidence is that it points undisputedly to the 13th century BCE and proves the biblical dating of the mid 15th century impossible.
Although there is certainly no direct extra-biblical source that supports the Israelite enslavement in Egypt or the Exodus but there are other pieces of circumstantial evidence. For example, there is the papyrus Leiden 348, a decree from an Egyptian official about the construction work at the city of Rameses that states:
Distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the ‘Apiru
The long time held view that the ‘Apiru were indeed the Hebrews has been rejected as the term ‘Apiru refers to a social strata rather than an ethnic group. But, it is possible that some of the Hebrews could have been ‘Apiru, but we still cannot prove a link between the Hebrews and the Israelites by using this text. The name Hebrew designates a much broader ethnicity than the name ‘Israelite’ anyway. The Israelites would all have been Hebrews but not all Hebrews would be Israelites, and not all Hebrews would have been ‘Apiru, and since the ‘Apiru were comprised of a wide range of ethnic groups, it is quite possible that some Israelites were ‘Apiru. Although this is not proof that Israelites were used for building these cities, it is circumstantial evidence, it is extremely questionable though, but possible nonetheless. Therefore the next ‘kernel’ of history is the mention of the two cities in Exodus 1:11, which may lend a hint of historiography to the event.
Another historical kernel of the Exodus is contained in Exodus 13:17-18
When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt. So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea.
This passage about the journey of the Israelites through Sinai may be better understood if we take into account the military road that the Egyptians constructed along the coast of northern Sinai, the biblical way of the Philistines. This route was fortified with a tight network of strongholds by Seti I early in the 13th century BCE, and remained under strict control of the Egyptians throughout that century. The fortification line provides a strong historical reason for the Israelites not taking the shortest route to Palestine, if they did indeed leave Egypt then they would have had to make the detour into the desert in order to avoid Egyptian strongholds.
There is particularly good support for this from the Papyri Anastasi (purchased as early as 1839), which were originally used as schoolboys’ copy books of model letters. Some of them reveal the tight control of the Egyptian authorities over their eastern frontier in the last decades of the 13th century BCE. These letters prove that there were strong controls over who could enter or leave Egypt, no one was allowed to do wither without a special permit.
Papyrus Anastasi III records daily crossings of individuals in either direction in the time of Merneptah.
Anastasi VI illustrates the passage into Egypt of an entire tribe coming down from Edom during a drought. This report is reminiscent of several patriarchal episodes concerning Abraham and Jacob, who were also said to have descended into Egypt because of a drought.
But most exciting for our purpose is Papyrus Anastasi V,11 dating to the end of the XlXth Dynasty (the end of the 13th century), which reports the escape of two slaves or servants from the royal residence at Pi-Ramesses, on the western edge of Wadi Tumilat. The fugitives flee into the Sinai wilderness by way of the fortified border. The author of the letter, a high-ranking Egyptian military commander, had been ordered by the Egyptian authorities to ensure that the runaways were captured and returned to Egypt:
Another matter, to wit: I was sent forth from the broad-halls of the palacelife, prosperity, health!in the third month of the third season, day 9, at the time of evening, following after these two slaves. Now when I reached the enclosure-wall of Tjeku on the 3rd month of the third season, day 10, they told [me] they were saying to the south that they had passed by on the 3rd month of the third season, day 10. (xx 1) [Now] when [I ] reached the fortress, they told me that the scout had come from the desert [saying that] they had passed the walled place north of the Migdol of Seti Mer-ne-Ptahlife, prosperity health!Beloved like Seth.
When my letter reaches you, write to me about all that has happened to [them]. Who found their tracks? Which watch found their tracks? What people are after them? Write to me about all that has happened to them and how many people you send out after them.
[May your health] be good!
Although this could provide another historical snippet of truth, for me the papyri Anastasi actually place the Bible version of Israel’s origins firmly into the category of fiction. Firstly, they show that no one could enter or leave Egypt without permission, and these incidents were all recorded, nothing in the Anastasi corpus mentions anything to do with an ‘Israel’. It is also rather unusual that there is a record of just two slaves escaping from Egypt, yet they failed to notice a group of several million Israelites escaping from Egypt.
The Tell el-Amarna letters also cast great shadows on the biblical narrative as well. These letters (as well as other evidence) inform us that Palestine was merely a province of Egypt when the Conquest attributed to Joshua allegedly happened, yet there is also no mention of Israel in these texts. We are also presented with the absurdity here of the Israelites escaping from Egypt and then battling to settle into another part of Egypt!
I think that the circumstantial evidence, that I have outlined very briefly, is very poor considering what effects the biblical events should have had on surrounding cultures, and the effects that it would have had on the archaeological record. Anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the debate over Israel’s origins would find fatal flaws with this circumstantial evidence. So I think it is safe to conclude that there was no Exodus from Egypt as described in the Bible, there may have been a mini-Exodus but we have no direct evidence of that either.
I would argue that it is more than likely that the events that make up the enslavement, Exodus, and conquest were legends passed down from generation to generation, they may at one time not have even been interconnected but became ‘cut and pasted’ together by a redactor after the exile.
I really think that the Exodus and Conquest narratives will eventually be recognised by everyone for what they are, ancient folk tales that were designed to give a nation a claim to live in a land that has been fought over by many nations for a very long time. What I find upsetting is that the Israelites probably do have a legitimate claim to the land, not because the Bible says so, but because they originally came from Palestine anyway, and they have been slaughtering their fellow Palestinians because they have taken some absurd ancient fairytales far too seriously.
It is a tragedy what has happened, and is happening in Palestine, and the blame sits squarely at the feet of the Bible.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Stormdancer, posted 01-16-2004 11:31 AM Stormdancer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Stormdancer, posted 01-22-2004 10:29 AM Brian has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 80 (80037)
01-22-2004 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Brian
01-21-2004 8:16 AM


Thank you ever so much Brian.
I am reading some books now that you and CA suggested.
I must say it leaves me with even more questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Brian, posted 01-21-2004 8:16 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 01-22-2004 11:57 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 67 of 80 (80053)
01-22-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Stormdancer
01-22-2004 10:29 AM


Hi SD,
I must say it leaves me with even more questions.
I think the deabte over the origins of Israel always will always produce more questions than answers, and I think that because of the deep religious involvement with the area peole are unwilling to accept some of the answers that are already available.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask or you can e-mail me if you want to.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Stormdancer, posted 01-22-2004 10:29 AM Stormdancer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Stormdancer, posted 01-27-2004 11:41 AM Brian has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 80 (81095)
01-27-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Brian
01-22-2004 11:57 AM


I happened upon this web page what do you guys think?
YahwehYawUgarit
"It is understood that these tablets belong to the same general period as the Amarna letters; and if that is correct, the name Ahi-Jami, which is very probably equivalent to
Ahijah, is most interesting, since it contains the divine name of Israel's God, written Ja-mi. In the Murashu archives found at Nippur, belonging to the reigns of Artaxerxes and Darius, the divine element in Hebrew names is written Ja-a-ma for Jawa." (p.54. Albert T. Clay. The Empire of the Amorites. New Haven. Yale University Press. 1919)
The origins of Yahwehism are not to be sought in the Negeb or Sinai, the biblical clues are false, archaeology reveals the events could not have occurred in the periods the Bible claims -biblical scholars have been led on a MERRY CHASE into the Negeb and Sinai- the origins are in the north, preserved at Ugarit in Syria and to a degree in Phoenicia as well.
In my opinion, what is being remembered in the biblical texts about Yahweh dawning from Seir and Paran (the Sinai), is the presence in the Southern Sinai and the Arabah of Late Bronze Age miners from South Canaan, working the Egyptian mines in the 18th-20th dynasties. These miners left Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions at Serabit el Khadim (15th century BCE) and the Hathor shrine, showing that they had no problem assimilating their god, EL to Egyptian gods and goddesses. "Yah" as an inscription, "Yah of Gat (Gath)," first surfaces in Canaan on a Late Bronze Age ewer found in a temple's debris at Lachish, NOT the Sinai and Edom.
Israel did, however, preserve a notion that their ancestors were Syrians ("Arameans"), the archaeological evidence extrapolated from the Syrian myths found in Ugarit about the struggle for supremacy to claim the title "Lord of the Earth", between Yaw/Yam and Baal seems to bear out the northern Israelite theophoric Yaw vs. Baal scenarios and confirms that Aramaean/Syrian religious beliefs are, to a degree, what is behind Yahwehism.
Deut 26:5, RSV,
"And you shall make response before the Lord your God. 'A wandering ARAMEAN was my father; and he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous.
Cf. my article titled "Israel's Iron IA Aramean Origins (the Archaeological Evidence For)," which argues that the Pentateuch is fusing two different origins stories together, Bronze Age Canaanite and Iron I Aramean, it being my understanding that the hundreds of villages suddenly appearing in the Hill Country of Canaan in Iron IA are Arameans driven from Aram/Syria by famine and war.
By 562 BCE when the Exodus story in its present form was written in the Exile (cf. 2 Kings 25:27), the narrator was evidently unaware that his God,
Yahweh-Elohim was an amalgum of earlier pagan Late Bronze Age gods from Syria (Ugarit), Canaan and Egypt (the Hyksos' Baal-Zephon/Baal-Hadad, assimilated to the Egyptian god Set/Seth).
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Brian, posted 01-22-2004 11:57 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 01-28-2004 8:56 AM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 80 (81108)
01-27-2004 12:00 PM


I should have posted the whole conclusion,,,,sorry.
Conclusions-
Yahwehism did not arise from a series of revelations to Abraham in Canaan and the Negeb ca. 2000 BCE -there was no well of Beersheba before 1200 BCE, the Philistines did not arrive in Canaan until ca. 1174 BCE- this is a myth. Neither did it arise through a revelation to Moses in the 15th century BCE while he was wandering the Sinai wilderness (ca. 1446 BCE, cf. 1 Kings 6:1), because archaeology reveals no Late Bronze Age presence at Mt. Sinai (2 million people). The fact that Northern Israelite names bear the theophoric Yaw suggests that they remained truer to their polythesistic religious heritage.
I have posited that Yahweh is Yaw/Yam of the Ugaritic Myths (1500-1200 BCE).
Later ages fused Ugaritic El (Bull-El), Yaw and Baal together into the persona of Yahweh-Elohim. In taking on the attributes and feats of these gods, Yahweh also took on their wives and consorts. Athirat (Ashtirat, Attart, Asherah) wife of El, became fused with Baal's consort, Anat ("the Queen of Heaven" in Late Bronze Age myths), Yaw/Yam's wife was Ashtoreth/Asherah, "the bride claimed by the tyrant sea" in an Egyptian papyrus.
Yahweh was also called Baali by Israel (Hosea 2:16.) Attart-shem-Baal ("Attart-name of-Baal") suggested to Leick, that Attart may be a MANIFESTATION of Baal. If correct, male and female gods could, at times, be aspects of each other. Perhaps Yahweh as Baali became a manifestation of Attart-shem-Baal ? Thus Attart as Asherah is a manifestation of Baali-Yahweh (God is bi-sexual, male and female) ? Langdon shows a coin from Gaza with a double faced head, male and bearded facing left, female to the right. Perhaps he is right in understanding this to be Yaw/Ashtart ?
Langdon-
"Yaw was associated with the Canaanitish Mother-goddess. `Ashart-`Anat, as we know from the name of the deity of the Jews at Elephantine, `Anat-Yaw, where two other father-mother titles of divinities occur, such as Ashim-Bethel, `Anat-Bethel, in which the titles of Astarte are combined with the sun-god Bethel. It is precisely at Gaza. where Yaw as a sun-god appears on a coin (fig. 23), that coins frequently bear the figure of this `Ashtart-Yaw, Anat-Yaw, Anat-Bethel, corresponding to the Phoenician Melk-Ashtart, Eshmun-Ashtart. Fig. 24, of the Persian period, is charcteristic of this male-female, or female-male deity, and the heads, being joined, prove that under these names was worshipped a deity who combines the attributes of both." (p.44, fig. 24. Stephen Herbert Langdon. The Mythology of All Races- Semitic. Vol. 5. Boston. Marshall Jones Company. 1931. pp. 454)
Leick-
"Attart-shem-Baal (Canaanite Goddess). Her name means 'Astart name of Baal.' In the Baal myths she appears as a manifestation and consort of Baal. Her character resembles that of Anat, as a goddess of war and the chase. Her fertility aspect is more pronounced in the Old Testament, where she is called Ashtoreth. In an Egyptian papyrus from the 19th Dynasty she is called the 'bride of the tyrant sea.' (p.16, "Attart-shem-Baal," Leick)
A number of scholars have suggested that the biblical narratives identifying Yahweh as dawning from Seir and Paran suggest he was originally a god of these areas. They point to Egyptian lists which suggest to them that there was a place called Ya-h-wa, identified with S-r-r, which they claim is Seir. One scholar has challenged these assumptions, Astour, as noted in Thompson's article on Yahweh.
Thompson:
"Yahweh. The Origin of the Name-
"The date and origin of the name has been debated. Its earliest appearances are in the song of Deborah (Judges 5; which has been dated to the 11th century BC), on the Mesha stele (9th century; ANET, 320), in an ostracon from Kuntillet Ajrud (8th century, Freedman 1987: 246), and in the Adad and Lachish letters (6th century; ANET, 569, 322).
To move outside of the Levant, we find Egyptian name lists which include a Syrian site, Ya-h-wa (No. 97), which is identical to Yahweh. A Ramesses II (1304-1237 BC) list is found in a Nubian temple in Amarah West with six names (Nos. 93-98) following the designation "Bedouin area". Nos. 96-98 have been found at Soleb in Nubia on an Amon temple of Amenhotep III (1417-1379 BC). No. 93, Sa-ra-r, has been identified with Seir (Edom) and related to the biblical references (Deut 33:2) which associate Yahweh with Seir and Paran. This could be taken as evidence the name was known in Edom or Midianite territory ca. 1400 BC (EncRel 7: 483-84).
However, Astour (IDBSup, 971), notes that the writing "S-r-r" is incorrect as opposed to the spelling in other Egyptian inscriptions. Furthermore, three of the sites, including Yi-ha, on Ramesses III's temple in Medinet Habu, are in a Syrian context suggesting that Ya-h-wa/Yi-ha was also in Syria. Thus the name is not associated with Edom or Midianites but does seem to appear as early as 1400 BC in Syria.
From a later time, the 8th century BC, two Aramean princes have names with the element "Yau." This has been taken to mean that some Arameans may have worshipped Yahweh (Rankin 1950:95). This could relate to the earlier connection of the Patriarchs with the Arameans, e.g., Jacob's sojourn with Laban, the eponymous ancestor of the Arameans (Genesis 29-31). The divine name is not found in any cuneiform texts.
The formative -yw in some personal names from Ugarit (ca. 14th century BC) is not a divine element and has no connection with the name Yahweh." (Henry O. Thompson, "Yahweh." Anchor Bible Dictionary. 1992)
The "earliest" clue of possible Yahweh worship in Canaan is of the Amarna Era and the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten, ca. 1350-1334 BCE. A clay tablet was found in an archive in Egypt, from a "Mayor" of Ta'anach in Canaan, called Ahi-Jami.
Professor Clay on a form of Yahweh appearing a theophoric element in a personal name of the "mayor" of Ta`anach, Canaan during the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaten, ca. 1350-:1334 BCE :

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 70 of 80 (81317)
01-28-2004 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Stormdancer
01-27-2004 11:41 AM


Hi,
Your first source is writing in 1919, this is qute a bit out of date. The Ebla tablets also revealed 'ya' names, which prompted some people to say that Yahweh was worshipped there. However, it seems that many names include yh yah yeh yo names that have nothing to do with the worship of Yahweh.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Stormdancer, posted 01-27-2004 11:41 AM Stormdancer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Stormdancer, posted 02-02-2004 2:41 PM Brian has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 80 (82174)
02-02-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Brian
01-28-2004 8:56 AM


HI Brian I found this web page and wanted to know what you thought .
It does touch on the subject the exodus, in a strange sorta way.
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bible.html
Someone was combining JE with the work that was written as an alternative to it. And this person was not merely combining them side by side, as parallel stories. He or she was cutting and intersecting them intricately. And at the end of this combined, interwoven {p. 218} collection of the laws and stories of J, E, and P, this person set Deuteronomy, the farewell speech of Moses, as a conclusion. Someone was merging the four different, often opposing sources so artfully that it would take millennia to figure it out.
What the heck?
This person thinks it was Ezra.
It goes on to say ,
this would mean that the Priestly source - the most important part of the Torah, including chapter 1 of the Book of Genesis - was written around 458 BC, in Babylon, under the direct influence of the
Zoroastrian religion
What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 01-28-2004 8:56 AM Brian has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 80 (82177)
02-02-2004 2:50 PM


The redactor
The redactor also used a Priestly text as the structure for the next fifteen chapters of the Bible - the stories of the enslavement of the Israelites and the exodus from Egypt. The text he used was the P version of the plagues that Yahweh inflicted upon the Egyptians. Simply put, he used the language of the P version to give unity to the different sources. In the P version, each of the plagues on the Egyptians was followed by the words:
{quote} But Pharaoh's heart was strengthened, and he did not listen to them, as Yahweh had spoken. {endquote} {Exod 7:13,22; 8:15; 9:12}
The redactor inserted words similar to these following plagues in the JE stories as well. {Exod 8:12b; 9:35; 10:10,27} Then, when he combined the P plague stories and the JE plague stories, the common endings gave the whole combined story a unity. The point is that the redactor was using Pnestly documents as the governing structure of the work.
Third, he added texts of his own, and these new texts were in the typical language and interests of P. I shall refer to some of these texts
{p. 220} below, and I have listed all of them in the Appendix. For now, let it sufffice to say that they are so much like the P texts in their language that for a long time investigators thought that they were part of P itself.

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 80 (82581)
02-03-2004 12:13 PM


Aaaaaa, anyone else want to help me out be my guest.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by Stormdancer, 02-03-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-10-2004 9:03 PM Stormdancer has replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 80 (84684)
02-09-2004 10:24 AM


What the heck did ya all die or something?

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 80 (84723)
02-09-2004 12:24 PM


Is it true that Biblical Hebrew is relatively free of foreign words, fatuously called loan words as if they were borrowed for a while then returned, and that Hebrew does not even have many Egyptian words?
Would you not think they would have being they were said to have spent several hundred years as slaves for the pharaohs, and known history tells us was an Egyptian colony for centuries until about 900 BC.
Aren't there are more foreign words in Hebrew from Babylon ?

  
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