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Author Topic:   Reverse realm and contradictions of bible translation
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 46 of 118 (546458)
02-11-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
quote:
Sky,
I don't trust the content of the Bible. I merely agree with a few things. God's existence. Christ as savior. These are by choice cus neither of them can be proven to exist or to have existed.

It's true that if you receive a phone call from somebody, there is no way to prove there is somebody on the other end of the conversation talking to you. But the longer you talk, and the more responses you get, the stronger your belief that there is a person there.
quote:

The reason I believe in them is solely because of revelation and dejavu... Granted both revelation and dejavu can be explained by Science... I just simply choose to be faithful.

I've not experienced either to any extent, and I don't have a good enough imagination to apply them to my belief in God, but OK. Accepted. That's why you believe.
quote:
As I've stated before, The scripture in the Bible is derived from many different authors that span many millennia of time.

40 Plus Authors
Covers 100's of controversial topics
spanning 1,500 years or so
40 plus generations
3 continents
3 languages
quote:

a lot of scripture was probably passed down by word of mouth.


Or (much more likely) it was written by the authors as well as being passed by word of mouth.

quote:
Then eventually it was written down by people that didn't have the entirety of the story just like in the game of phone.

Even in the the phone game the original text is read and everybody has a good laugh.
In order for the grapevine theory to work, the original text must be lost. The people that lived in the time these events took place are not famous for playing telephone with stories. Jesus spoke in Aramaic which is a very lyrical, poetic style of language. When the greek is re translated back to Aramaic it is found to be easy to set into rhymes or patterns. If I start "London bridge is falling down" you likely can pick up where I stopped.

Linguistic researchers have put much of what Jesus said back into similar phrases and theorize that he used this uncommon language just for that reason. And Jesus quoted the old testament with accuracy. And seemingly full knowledge of the OT text we use today.

quote:
This has happened with the Bible.

Easy to prove.
The links you shared don't measure up to the tale that your telling however.
(Telling that you are.)
( Are that you tell.)
(You are that telling)
Now if you tnihk my masasge got list by scrbmaling theses words, srue myabe it did. But there is the other 98% to help you get back on track.

quote:
The message is undoubtedly different than its autographs which were written, most likely, centuries after its origin. Then eventually it was copied in the form of manuscripts which is what we read in our time. However, these manuscripts were hand copied for millenia before they reached our time, plenty of time for change to occur.

That's all good possible theory.

You have 40,000 handwritten manuscripts to prove your point.
Until today, no one has examined the handwritten manuscripts that
we have, and reached the conclusion that the original autographs
were copied incorrectly.

If you have examples of OTHER texts showing up with gross changes, and sloppy interpretation over the same time period....then you may have a case. But at this time, your assertion is baseless.

Then there is the internal congruency. Can you take the personal opinions of 40 authors, over 1,500 years, three continents, and have their opinions agree with each other? That they all agree on one moral code?

OK, now run those 40 authors stories through your "telephone game" for 1000 years and have all their opinions and morals all line up with each other. And details about the same events.

quote:
Things like laws though or regulations these are definitely going to change over time with culture. So all that part of the Bible is for sure just crap,

You can call them crap. I still like the first 5, and I think the last 5 are good enough for all Americans to embrace:

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
nor his xbox, nor his TiVo, nor his little children,

quote:
.. Stuff like end of the world scnenarios seem ludicrus to me. Typically prophecies like seen in revelations are crap. These prophecies are simply to broad to say a phophecy is being fullfilled.. You need something specific. The world is going to turn yellow on 2015. LOL. That is pretty specific.

Those are the kinda prophecies I like to see cus in 2015 we can test it. Anything else is just hogwash superstition.
This is reality, come back to it.....


2015 & Reality in the same breath. All-Righty-Then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 6:25 PM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:58 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
 Message 52 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2010 9:57 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 47 of 118 (546469)
02-11-2010 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
I get it. You have to learn to walk in the other guys shoes. You would need to find me conflicting information from a source I trust in order to make a valid point.

Just as if I was trying to discredit your "age for the earth", I would have to use a "Scientific" source to discredit you.

I can't call all scientific literature POISONED.

My original message was about two things

1) the amount of literary heavy-lifting done by most believers seems to be minimal, and infact all the websites I found did zero checking on their own and instead parroted one person's book. Whilst the book may be correct about the numbers of manuscript copies, whilst I haven't read it, it still doesn't tell me anything about the veracity or accuracy of the manuscripts

It does tell me there are a lot of copies, but it shows no proof about accuracy when compared to these older copies, nor about changes between earlier and later in terms of language, syntax, context or otherwise.

Maybe the actual book has better proof?

I think to pretend that translations change nothing than the language is a big mistake, and I think to pretend that whilst scribes are really, really good at what they do, to pretend that they can't make mistakes or would not make changes for any reason is foolish.

2) You still cannot use the bible to prove the bible - I think that is, essentially, goedels incompleteness theorem (yes, I'm horribly ignorant so if I've got the name wrong, please correct). As I stated, there are probably more than 24,000 copies of starwars and they date right back to year 0 of the mythos. In 2000 years, should archaeologists find the original trilogy, should they automatically assume it to be true?

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 11:47 AM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 2:09 PM greyseal has not yet responded
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 48 of 118 (546470)
02-11-2010 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by celestialGyoud
02-09-2010 3:18 PM


Re: FOUR SYNCHRONIZED KEYS –– Proof of the Scripture being self-evident
I...have no idea what you're talking about. Can you tone down the crazy and explain that in plain English?

Even assuming some all-pervading quasi-mathematical code that can survive translation between myriad languages and several thousand years, how can you use the bible to prove the bible?

I'm also not sure how what you're talking about negates contradictions of bible translations, except by attempting to assert that there's some sort of inbuilt meta-CRC to fix all these errors?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-09-2010 3:18 PM celestialGyoud has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-11-2010 8:02 AM greyseal has responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 49 of 118 (546471)
02-11-2010 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 12:07 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
2015 & Reality in the same breath. All-Righty-Then.

?

it's now 2010. back in '78 the JW's thought the world was going to end. Again. Back in 2000 I think there were several doomsday cults that drank the coolaid.

What's wrong with talking about 2015?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:07 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Sasuke, posted 02-11-2010 1:21 PM greyseal has responded

    
celestialGyoud
Member
Posts: 551
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 50 of 118 (546482)
02-11-2010 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by greyseal
02-11-2010 3:56 AM


THE THIRD SYNCHRONIZED KEY –– using bible to prove the bible
how can you use the bible to prove the bible?

-

In order to see the Scriptures as originally written
you have the option of doing this: use the synchronized keys to revert the changes.

-


אמנהEmunah – Fidelitate in Ancient Roman Language

Do not omit the sureness, which is worth a great recompense, for patience is necessary for you; that, being the purpose of JHVH, you may shelter the promissory [first sparks of the Spirit] of JHVH. For yet a little and a very little while, and the One that is to come, will come, and will not delay. It is because of his אמנהfidelity to JHVH that my righteous one shall live, and if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of fidelity to the permanence of the soul.

Now [by] אמנהfidelity is [manifest] the substance of things [of the word] which one remains in, and the evidence of things that appear not.

[*Darby Bible T.: substantiating of things]

For by this [constant fidelity to JHVH’s word] the ancients obtained a pleasant testimony. By אמנהemunah (fidelity) we understand that the world was framed by the word of יהוה JHVH that from invisible things visible things might be made. For [his] fidelitate Abel offered to JHVH a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, JHVH giving testimony to his gifts - and by it he being dead yet speaks.

For his אמנהfidelitate E’noch was translated, that he should not see death - and he was not found, because JHVH had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased JHVH. For it is not possible to please without the fidelity which one must manifest so that he might approach near, ascertain that the light is present, and is gracious to them that will remain in the light.

-------

All things are possible to him that does them for Fidelity to יהוה

Quae creditur – …is possible to him that has fides (spiritual credit that is credited by the spirit of man)

If you have אמנהEmunah--Fidelity to יהוה as a grain of mustard seed, you can say to this sycamore-tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea’ and instantly it will obey you.

(Word אמנהEmunah is present in the New Testament in Hebrew)

By Fidelity is [manifest] the substance of things [of the word] which one remains in,

A true Substance, ISAAC, was [manifest] by Abraham’s fidelity (complete constancy) to I AM

Also, by fidelity is [manifest] the evidence of things not seen, [that from invisible things]

A true Evidence of something not seen, become made visible, the lamb to die in the place of his son.

אמנהFidelity comes by hearing, and hearing the eternal words of I AM יהוה only.
Quae creditur – …fides (that is credited/believed) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of [the] god…

Through a testimony of fidelity is [manifest] the accomplishment [completeness; evidence] of things that appear not: that from the invisible word that is heard, visible things might be made. If one has אמנהAemunah--fidelity as small as a grain of mustard seed, walks not by sight, doing the good works not through a system that is in the sight [or supervision] of meddlers of the spiritual area, spiritual fathers, reverends, false prophet (theology), ministers, pastors, mercenaries of religion and doctrines.

Just as there is no bird bill that can grab the smallest seed: the grain of mustard seed, even so fidelity is evidence of things not seen, if walking not by sight, one does the good works spontaneously and unexpectedly, for love only; not putting him—herself in subjection under the sight [or supervision] of human ministrations of law.

Fidelitate - Ancient Roman Language
Fidelitŕ - Italian
Fidelitas - Medieval Latin

Parable of the Road –– The light is with you in a brief time. Walk on the road in the time you have the light so that darkness doesn’t overtake you. He that walks in the obscurity, credits a light, believing [there is] a road but doesn’t know where he’s going. In the [immediate] time you have the light, see the road in the light so that you may become a first-fruit of light.

Brief time: Immediate time; A sequence of time that is abbreviated.
Access in a brief or Immediate sequence; a dividing of time.
...believing [there is] a road –– Synonym: Not seeing the road.
Bible in Basic English -- ...one walking in the dark has no knowledge of where he is going.
Quae creditur – …walks in darkness (in lack of belief) knows not where he goes.
And If you feel that you can’t go on [a system of] ‘Just believe’
and you know that you can’t go wrong, in the Light you’ll find the road.

Parable of the Trail –– Is there not a half day of daylight? A man may go about a half day without falling because he sees the trail in the light. But if a man goes about in the obscure, believing [there is] a trail, he may have a fall because the daylight does not depend on his will of believing.

Half day, Immediate time; A Mediated sequence of time that is a dividing of time.
...believing [there is] a trail –– Synonym: Not seeing the trail.
Bible in Basic English -- ...he may have a fall because the light is not in him.
Quae creditur – …because there is no light [of belief] in him.

– Can you see now with your eyes he that is first-fruit of I AM?
– Who is he that I might see him?
– You have seen him already, in a certain way, and he is the one speaking to you now.
– Yes I did.
– I AM come into this world for eternal Justice, in order that those who do not see might see, and those who believe that they see might keep on choosing to be blind.

Then the religious ones asked,

– Are we blind too?
– If you admitted you are not seeing you would not be transgressing, but because you say: ‘Believing, we see!’, that is where your transgression begins.

Previously,

The apostles asked, Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? -- I AM WHO SAVES said, Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but that seeing not what is appearence he should see first the glory of splendor in the light of the name of יהוהI AM.
In the times that I AM in the earth, יהוהI AM the Light that makes the clay of the earth to glisten! –– Go and wash in the pool of Si-lo'am.

-

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : averages

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:56 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 8:21 AM celestialGyoud has responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 51 of 118 (546489)
02-11-2010 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by celestialGyoud
02-11-2010 8:02 AM


Re: THE THIRD SYNCHRONIZED KEY –– using bible to prove the bible
how can you use the bible to prove the bible?

-------

Revert the keys Sir,

Every Scripture has been reversed,
example: a camel's name: the generic term, god and elohim (gods) instead of a SEPARATE NAME: ELYON....
faith instead of Fidelity....

In order to see the Scriptures as originally written
you have the option of doing this: use the synchronized keys to revert the changes made by the Scribes.

(synchronized reversed noodle blumpf redacted)

no, please, really - start at the beginning. I don't know what a synchronized key is, I have no idea what a camel has to do with elohim and if I try to read scripture backwards it makes even less sense than it does forwards. Especially if I try to read it in Jewish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-11-2010 8:02 AM celestialGyoud has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by celestialGyoud, posted 02-18-2010 3:54 PM greyseal has not yet responded
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 52 of 118 (546503)
02-11-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 12:07 AM


How accurate were Christian scribes?
You have 40,000 handwritten manuscripts to prove your point.
Until today, no one has examined the handwritten manuscripts that
we have, and reached the conclusion that the original autographs
were copied incorrectly.

Actually, I recall a quote from a New Testament scholar. I am paraphrasing but he basically said that there are more differences amongst the manuscripts of the New Testament than there are WORDS in the New Testament.

Lets start with just one example. How many manuscripts of the Gospel of John have the story of Jesus and the adultress?


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:07 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 53 of 118 (546526)
02-11-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 12:07 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

Sasuke writes:

Sky,
I don't trust the content of the Bible. I merely agree with a few things. God's existence. Christ as savior. These are by choice cus neither of them can be proven to exist or to have existed.

Sky writes:

It's true that if you receive a phone call from somebody, there is no way to prove there is somebody on the other end of the conversation talking to you. But the longer you talk, and the more responses you get, the stronger your belief that there is a person there.

You have a call log that is provided by your phone company that lists the phone number and duration of the call. All you gotta do is check. I don't find this being a good example of when "god speaks to your mind" if that is what your refering to above.

Sasuke writes:

The reason I believe in them is solely because of revelation and dejavu... Granted both revelation and dejavu can be explained by Science... I just simply choose to be faithful.

Sky writes:

I've not experienced either to any extent, and I don't have a good enough imagination to apply them to my belief in God, but OK. Accepted. That's why you believe.

Your a Christian and are unaware of what a revelation is? When you pray and the prayer seemingly is answered, when you get what you ask for? Ofcourse this typically only applies when your asking for things that are truely needed and of course it can't affect the will of another. I would agree it could be a coincidence except that it happens or I should say has happened a lot in my life.

A dejavu is simply when your are someplace, with friends, family or even people you don't know which would make it more interesting and all of a sudden while the event is happening, you seemingly remember it happening before... The question is how can this be? Especially since time only moves in 1 direction...... Course I believe there is a psychological answer to this phenomena but I believe it's purely speculation over it being an educated guess...

Sasuke writes:

As I've stated before, The scripture in the Bible is derived from many different authors that span many millennia of time.

Sky writes:


40 Plus Authors
Covers 100's of controversial topics
spanning 1,500 years or so
40 plus generations
3 continents
3 languages


-Actually it is unknown how many authors there are in the Bible. Take for example the book of Genesis. It is only Jewish tradition that Moses wrote it, however, it is also clear that it was written by many people(compare G1 and G2). There is no concrete evidence that Moses wrote it either.(this is just 1 example)

-The Bible spans millenia earlier than 1500 years ago or so, or 500ce, much earlier.

-40 plus generations only takes us to approximately 10ce(around the time of the stories of Christ). Not early enough.

-I believe the Bible is known world wide.

-I believe the Bible is in all common languages. So really 3(30) or more.

Sasuke writes:

a lot of scripture was probably passed down by word of mouth.

Sky writes:

Or (much more likely) it was written by the authors as well as being passed by word of mouth.

Some evidence to consider is, are there earlier stories that are similiar to the stories in the Bible? The answer is Yes. An example would be with the book of Genesis and its creation stories(2x). There are stories from other cultures that are very similiar to that of the creation story in the Bible which date earlier than the creation story in the Bible. The point, there probably is cross cultural mixing of atleast 1 story in the Bible(other examples, refer to the epic of Gilgamesh and compare that to the flood stories in the Bible or the Code of Hammurabi and compare that to the 10 comandments in the Bible). Which is evidence to presume it occured many times. Another point is, writing developed fairly early yes but we have no idea when the creation stories began to develope atleast I don't. The point being, language developed long before writing and as such, I am sure these stories were being talked about prior to writing. Especially since writing originally developed from a form of simply financial record keeping. It was simply not until centuries after writing had developed that it was used for scripture. Writing simply had to develope to the point to where it could have been used for scripture and so on... You also have to take into account that there were not many who were literate either.

Sasuke writes:

Then eventually it was written down by people that didn't have the entirety of the story just like in the game of phone.

Sky writes:

Even in the the phone game the original text is read and everybody has a good laugh.
In order for the grapevine theory to work, the original text must be lost. The people that lived in the time these events took place are not famous for playing telephone with stories. Jesus spoke in Aramaic which is a very lyrical, poetic style of language. When the greek is re translated back to Aramaic it is found to be easy to set into rhymes or patterns. If I start "London bridge is falling down" you likely can pick up where I stopped.

Linguistic researchers have put much of what Jesus said back into similar phrases and theorize that he used this uncommon language just for that reason. And Jesus quoted the old testament with accuracy. And seemingly full knowledge of the OT text we use today.

First thing, you don't have to have the original message to play telephone. Try to be objective.

You're wrong again, all people are known for playing telephone with any story that is available. You must not be a social person.

Jesus speaking in Aramic is a moot point. Aramic had to exist as a language prior to Jesus in order for him to be able to speak it fluently. As such, there are plenty of people that could have played telephone that spoke Aramic before and after.

You really need to be a little more objective.

Sasuke writes:

This has happened with the Bible.

Sky writes:

Easy to prove.
The links you shared don't measure up to the tale that your telling however.
(Telling that you are.)
( Are that you tell.)
(You are that telling)
Now if you tnihk my masasge got list by scrbmaling theses words, srue myabe it did. But there is the other 98% to help you get back on track.


This is a good example of scrambling and it reinforces my point. Your estimation of 98% is an approximation that has some bad variables involved to equal the original sum. You need to do the actual math with the actual veriables. Count the amount of words that are in the Bible. Then count the amount of errors that are known in the Bible. You could start with the english translation however to get a better picture you really need to be reading the original languages or the manuscripts. Then you simply divide errors by the total number. Keeep in mind that how many errors there are in the Bible is not even agreed upon by people. Some agree that 99% of the Bible is error prone. Some agree that 99% of the Bible is not error prone. Do the math your self. Get counting.

Sasuke writes:

The message is undoubtedly different than its autographs which were written, most likely, centuries after its origin. Then eventually it was copied in the form of manuscripts which is what we read in our time. However, these manuscripts were hand copied for millenia before they reached our time, plenty of time for change to occur.

Sky writes:

That's all good possible theory.
You have 40,000 handwritten manuscripts to prove your point.
Until today, no one has examined the handwritten manuscripts that
we have, and reached the conclusion that the original autographs
were copied incorrectly.

If you have examples of OTHER texts showing up with gross changes, and sloppy interpretation over the same time period....then you may have a case. But at this time, your assertion is baseless.

Then there is the internal congruency. Can you take the personal opinions of 40 authors, over 1,500 years, three continents, and have their opinions agree with each other? That they all agree on one moral code?

OK, now run those 40 authors stories through your "telephone game" for 1000 years and have all their opinions and morals all line up with each other. And details about the same events.


Actually first thing, to conclude that nobody has read the manuscripts and concluded that there are errors in the manuscripts you first have to know all the people involved in this process(just compare G1 to G2). You don't. Another thing, The media only covers what money pays for so do your self a favor and stop trusting them. Now that your informed, do your self another favor and follow the evidence that you can follow your self. The links I provided in my prior post give you that chance. The only conclusion that I come to after realizing the evidence that I can follow, as posted in the links, is that the Bible is prone to errors. Especially when you consider all the different interpretations of man. I mean, how many biblical churches are there today?

Sasuke writes:

Things like laws though or regulations these are definitely going to change over time with culture. So all that part of the Bible is for sure just crap,

Sky writes:

You can call them crap. I still like the first 5, and I think the last 5 are good enough for all Americans to embrace:
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
nor his xbox, nor his TiVo, nor his little children,

Read all ten commandments. There is really only two commandments that are actually worthy laws. Don't kill and don't steal. The rest of the 10 commandments are just honor this honor that bla bla... or doing this is a bad idea or doing that is a bad idea.... Take for example(lets go back in time) don't lie. What would happen if Nazi' came to your Christian home asking if you have seen any Jews and you have Jews living down stairs in the basement? They threatened to kill you if you didn't tell them the truth. Should you lie or say hey I got some Jews downstairs...? I would lie so the jews could live but is this really a sin?

Sasuke writes:

.. Stuff like end of the world scnenarios seem ludicrus to me. Typically prophecies like seen in revelations are crap. These prophecies are simply to broad to say a phophecy is being fullfilled.. You need something specific. The world is going to turn yellow on 2015. LOL. That is pretty specific.
Those are the kinda prophecies I like to see cus in 2015 we can test it. Anything else is just hogwash superstition.
This is reality, come back to it.....

Sky writes:

2015 & Reality in the same breath. All-Righty-Then.

Look man. We exist in a plane of time. We are all in this boat. We look around in the world trying to figure out if there is a purpose or not. Everything affects who we are and what we believe. Everything from Religion to Science. Even this discussion is affecting who you are because it is an experience. The reality is simple, biblical scripture is but one ancient text to refer to when it comes to faith. As such, to be honest, none of the ancient texts congrue on a end time scenario. They are all slightly different with differing time periods for end time dates.

I also want to make the other point I was making earlier, there are no prophecies that exist that I know of, from Nostrodamus, Mayan, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism or even Africian faiths that predict exact dates for events with specific results. All prophecies are broad not specific. This gives all prophecies room to be right and wrong during any event. It just depends how you interpret them. Interpretation is key when reading prophecies.......

Edited by Sasuke, : fixed some grammar.. -not all...

Edited by Sasuke, : edit - some more grammar issues.. -still not perfect..

Edited by Sasuke, : spelling....

Edited by Sasuke, : grammar... - clarity.... -still some issues..

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:07 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 54 of 118 (546531)
02-11-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by greyseal
02-11-2010 3:58 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
grayseal,

2012.. dun dun dun...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:58 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 55 of 118 (546542)
02-11-2010 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by greyseal
02-11-2010 3:52 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
My original message was about two things
1) the amount of literary heavy-lifting done by most believers seems to be minimal, and infact all the websites I found did zero checking on their own and instead parroted one person's book.

You should instead, be critical of the amount of effort by non believers who are still in bed, not lifting an eyelid to help you out.

Whilst the book may be correct about the numbers of manuscript copies, whilst I haven't read it, it still doesn't tell me anything about the veracity or accuracy of the manuscripts

It does tell me there are a lot of copies, but it shows no proof about accuracy when compared to these older copies, nor about changes between earlier and later in terms of language, syntax, context or otherwise.
Maybe the actual book has better proof?

It has further citations.
http://www.amazon.com/...estament-Transmission/dp/0198261705
http://openlibrary.org/...M/New_Testament_manuscript_studies
http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=1040

I think to pretend that translations change nothing than the language is a big mistake, and I think to pretend that whilst scribes are really, really good at what they do, to pretend that they can't make mistakes or would not make changes for any reason is foolish.

And yet that gets the best insights. It not only allows one to see what is there, but it allows insights into the subtleties of the language and even God's sense of humor. So if your missing God's sense of Humor in your readings.....


2) You still cannot use the bible to prove the bible [according to ] Godels incompleteness theorem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

Yes you can. That is one method to use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
If 40+ authors, writing over 1000 years,
all agree on matters of ethics and morality,
then all the writings were corrupted by some editor so they would agree,
or you have the Word of God in your hands.

Because you'll be hard pressed to find 2 people alive in your half of the United States
who agree on all matters of ethics and morality.

Edited by Sky-Writing, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:52 AM greyseal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Sasuke, posted 02-11-2010 2:15 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Coragyps, posted 02-11-2010 2:19 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 56 of 118 (546545)
02-11-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 2:09 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

Sky writes:

You should instead, be critical of the amount of effort by non believers who are still in bed, not lifting an eyelid to help you out.

Are you saying that gentiles don't research? In fact its the opposite. Typically it is the Christians that don't do the research because they presume goddidit. The difference between fundies and scientists is that scientists study fundies Uhhdy(goddidit).

Sky writes:

Yes you can. That is one method to use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
If 40+ authors, writing over 1000 years,
all agree on matters of ethics and morality,
then all the writings were corrupted by some editor so they would agree,
or you have the Word of God in your hands.
Because you'll be hard pressed to find 2 people alive in your half of the United States
who agree on all matters of ethics and morality.

The authors of the Bible do not all agree with each other. You have facts and then you have the interpreters. The facts are in the Bible written by the authors, its called scripture... The interpreters are people like you and I. I guarantee you as we interpret biblical scripture that we are not going to agree with what it says, in fact there is much argument among scholars just due to personal belief structure per scholar(money can even affect their views or atleast what is reported to the mainstream public...) Your predisposition is false.

Another thing, your link is simply a definition, it does not report that there is in fact a congruence between authors in the Bible.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

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Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : No reason given.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5266
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 57 of 118 (546547)
02-11-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 2:09 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Because you'll be hard pressed to find 2 people alive in your half of the United States who agree on all matters of ethics and morality.

Find me two people in your Book that do that, Sky.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 2:09 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


(1)
Message 58 of 118 (546553)
02-11-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Sasuke
02-11-2010 1:21 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
2012.. dun dun dun...

oh don't remind me! that movie was awful! It was worse than The Day After Tomorrow!

..oh, wait, yes, the whole world-really-is-going-to-end-this-time-we-mean-it

Just...nod, and walk away, slowly. Don't make eye contact...


This message is a reply to:
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celestialGyoud
Member
Posts: 551
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 59 of 118 (546571)
02-11-2010 3:33 PM


Non-existence of consecrated unions and incest in the Law of the Hebrews
-------

1st -- Does a church have authority in matters to the Spirit to consecrate or declare the union between man and woman as a sacred union of their spirits?

According to the Law given to the children of Israel,
- Man and woman can not become one in matters to the Spirit,
- no church or instituted thing is given authority from above to declare the union of their spirit,
- sacred conjuration through the instituted thing; religion and doctrines, is abomination, whether it is called matrimony or not,

because according to the Scriptures man and woman ought not to put their spirit under subjection to that type of adjured consecration;

Man and woman only become one in matters to the flesh, not in matters to the Spirit,
as it is said in the first letter to the gatherings of people of Corinto--Greece:

For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh. But the person who unites himself with Jehaveh becomes one spirit.'

In order to keep themselves Separate [Set apart] from being participants with the image or abomination of consecrating their spirit to each other,

- man and woman ought not to adjure or consecrate themselves to each other through the use of churches, reverends, fathers, pastors or ministers.

Eternal instruction clears up that his or her spirit ought to be submissive only and uniquely to the One that said: I AM that life and that resurrection.

-------

2nd -- Is the union between siblings incest?

Their union is not against the Law given to the children of Yisrael.
in the same perspective that the union of Adam and Eve becoming one flesh,
and the union between their son and daughter were not against the true Law.

Scripture speaks about mutual respect in the words 'you shall not uncover her', giving the understanding that the fact of being her brother does not give him any right or power over her.

Absence of the theory of incest might be seen in the second book of Samuel, in the words Tamar said to her brother: '....go and make your request to the king, for he will not keep me from you.' (2 Samuel **:**)

When transcribing the bibles, the Scribes of the religious ones have been placing this subject in the row of illicit unions;

What's the interest of those Scribes in doing that;
Union between a brother and his sister profits nothing to those that have marriage as a business, as the living Word said:

'they were selling and buying: marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah entered in the Ark'

-------

Is the union between two women, siblings or not, against the Law given to the Hebrews?

That is not against the Law given to the children of Yisrael.

-------

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update


    
celestialGyoud
Member
Posts: 551
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 60 of 118 (547355)
02-18-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by greyseal
02-11-2010 8:21 AM


Verifying the lock of the new testament with a Reversed 4th Key
greyseal wrote:

start at the beginning. I don't know what a synchronized key is....

What’s a fourth key – The term Fourth Synchronized key, in this case, is being used for a real evidence of the sign of the lamb. A reversed 4th key is evidence that the sign of the lamb has been eclipsed and kept hidden by the presence of another mark: the Roman cross, that is the exact contrary of what the sign of the lamb is.

-------

When reading scripture from the usual copies, what facts did actually take place; Did Pilate have the Lamb scourged? Of course not. It would be against both laws. If anyone will be willing to bet his life that it could have happened, strong with him the faith is.

I. According to the laws of the Roman Empire no one was tortured through such interrogation method unless he lacked in regards to the Truth. – II. Pilate did not preside at a trial nor had the Lamb indicted either; The fact of him asking the questions he asked in no way indicates that Pilate would have accepted any charge against the Lamb. – III. A falseness in the story of a Iesus exchanging place with Ba-rab’bas becomes evident if one sees, in the light, that the Lamb was not Pilate’s prisoner nor was he under the custody of the chief priests either.

Sample of Acts of Pilate – Hebrew Names Edition: Pilate called the messenger and said unto him: Let Jehaveh’óshua be brought hitter, but with gentleness.

Pilate listened to his wife who said to him Have thou nothing to do with the cause of that righteous one – And these words retain the same meaning of Have thou and the laws of the Romans nothing to do with the manner that the Lamb is offered to die.

IV. If you are on command, in real life, and you say There is no basis for a charge against him but then you see people around you talking about accomplishment of a Law extremely fixed in the words: ONE LAW SHALL BE TO HIM WHO IS BORN AT HOME, AND TO THE STRANGER WHO LIVES AS A FOREIGNER AMONG YOU, and you hear a demand from a high priest:

We have a Law, and he shall be suspended according to our Law (his hands gathered and tied above his head) because he made himself the SANCTIFIED ONE OF YISRAEL.

Quae creditur mastercopy: ‘…We have a Law, and, according to our Law, he ought to die…’

you’re not being requested for a Roman method of execution. Book of John clears up: When Pilate heard this statement, he feared even more.

Book of Luke completes: he determined that it had to be as they demanded.

Gathering both rows is seeing that Pilate did not impose nor allow condemnation by the laws of the Romans or of the Roman cross. As a matter of fact when one finally faces up to true realm, then every crucifix is obsolete.

-------

quote:
FOUR SYNCHRONIZED KEYS
Proof of the Scripture being self-evident –– evidence for herself
Even when true scripture is hidden and eclipsed by translations made by the Scribes, there will always be both sides of a synchronized key being left for one to trail and identify which words were actually spoken and what facts had indeed occurred. They are named Synchronized because their poles apart or opposite sides are simultaneous in the entire Scripture. A sample of their poles being simultaneously apart or opposite to each other is found in the twenty-seven books of the New Testament and in two books of The New Testament Apocryphal: The Thomas Gospel and The Acts of Pilate.
So the meaning: All these manuscripts and their copies have been locked by the same keys, as it was quoted before: The Scribes took the keys of the door of Scripture and hid them; nor did they enter, and those who desired to enter, they permitted them not. You, however, be precautious with serpents and innocent with doves!

1st Key – The word אל EL abbreviation of ELYON (THE ONE THAT DECLARES) being replaced by the precise opposite: a camel’s name; the generic term god or elohim (gods).

2nd Key – Hebrew name יהוהושעJEHAVEH’ÓSHUA (I AM IS THE SALVATION), a name of I AM being substituted by something else: not the eternal name by which the apostles called the Lamb, nor was it even a name when Pilate wrote on the plaque Id Est SVS (suspended) Nazarenus Rex Judaiórum – and a name of I AM was substituted with a man’s name: Iesus Kristus, where three sequential sixes are found twice.

3rd Key – Hebrew word אמנהEMUNAH (Fidelity to YHVH’s Word only) being substituted by the exact contrary: Fides quae creditur (belief that is credited by the spirit of man); that which takes a word from the spirit of man whenever one declares, by believing, what the truth is, without knowing or verifying the Truth that only can be retained by hearing the eternal Words. Reversed mode of this key exterminates fides quae creditur.

4th Key – The sign of the lamb [the palms of both hands gathered and pressed to one another] the maximum approach between both hands, being replaced by the precise opposite: the sign of the beast that is the maximum distance between both hands; the sign of the Roman cross.


-------

Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : update


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