Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-24-2017 6:30 AM
350 online now:
NoNukes, PaulK (2 members, 348 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,344 Year: 23,950/21,208 Month: 1,915/2,468 Week: 8/416 Day: 8/24 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
910
11
12131415Next
Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 151 of 219 (164607)
12-02-2004 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by dpardo
12-01-2004 9:53 PM


Warnings?
quote:
Luke 11:23
23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
Unfortunately within the "Jesus and Beelzebub" stories in Luke 11:14-26 and Matthew 12:22-37 that phrase in each doesn't seem to fit the lesson being promoted.

The story in Mark gives the message clearer.

Mark 3:20-30
...And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand..... And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact no one can enter a strong man's house... I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

By claiming that Jesus was doing miracles because of an evil spirit slandered the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable. I'm not sure how the verse you shared fits into that lesson.

In Mark 9:40 and Luke 9:50 we find a similar idea is used concerning a man who was driving out demons in the name of Jesus.

Mark 9:39-40
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."

How were the verses you shared warnings dealing with the OP/offer?

This message has been edited by purpledawn, 12-02-2004 07:07 AM


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by dpardo, posted 12-01-2004 9:53 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 152 of 219 (164615)
12-02-2004 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by dpardo
12-01-2004 5:23 PM


Son of God
quote:
Matthew 16:15-17
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mark and Luke don't really join in with the "Son of God" part.

Mark 8:29
...Peter answered, "You are the Christ."

Luke 9:20
...Peter answered, "The Christ of God."

Then in verse 20 of Matthew we have:

Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

The above statement is also given in Mark and Luke.

The following phrase is also found in Matthew 16:21 and Luke 9:22.

Mark 8:31
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and after three days rise again.

According to this the leaders were already set up to reject Jesus. It was already set up that he must be killed. So the Jewish people involved in this scenerio are blameless.

Given that the Jewish leaders were set up to fail, then the Jewish people who follow their leaders because they are supposedly chosen by God, were set up to fail.

This is not a good scenerio.

If we go down this road, then it is Gentiles beware:

Romans 11
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious....
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brother, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: (Isaiah 59:20-21)

I find is discomforting that you want to present to me a God who ends a contract without warning and sets up his people to fail. Because if you do, then there is no quarantee that when the Judgment Day comes, the Gentiles are guaranteed anything. The Gentiles could be just another test and the Jews who stuck with the original contract, passed.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by dpardo, posted 12-01-2004 5:23 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 1:34 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 219 (164654)
12-02-2004 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by ramoss
12-01-2004 10:02 PM


Re: Summary
The warnings were meant for Purpledawn and Arachnophilia.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ramoss, posted 12-01-2004 10:02 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 12:39 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:28 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3039
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 154 of 219 (164656)
12-02-2004 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-02-2004 12:25 PM


Re: Summary
However, the thread is that the Jews rejected the offer from God. You have to show from the Jewish scriptures that.

Trying to 'warn' Purpledawn and Arachnophilia is irrelavent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 12:25 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 12:50 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 219 (164657)
12-02-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by arachnophilia
12-02-2004 2:26 AM


Re: Summary
Arachnophilia writes:

these clearly indicate that god works alone. all the power and might and credit belongs rightly to Allah. jesus cannot be a diety, nor does he play a role in salvation.

do you believe this? the text is quite clear.

if you don't accept this, why should a jew accept the new testament?

I don't expect a Jew to simply accept the New Testament.

If Jesus actually preached and taught the Jews and delivered his message, way back in the first century, does it matter whether it is in a book or not?

That it actually is in a book lends more credence to the existence of God as it is logical to expect that his message be available (however difficult it may be to access it notwithstanding).

Fact (IMO)- The Jews that lived during the first century A.D. heard his message and some believed and some did not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2004 2:26 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 219 (164658)
12-02-2004 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ramoss
12-02-2004 12:39 PM


Re: Summary
Ramoss writes:

Trying to 'warn' Purpledawn and Arachnophilia is irrelavent.

It is irrelevant only if God doesn't exist, IMO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 12:39 PM ramoss has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 219 (164663)
12-02-2004 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 4:51 AM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Unfortunately John 3:16 is part of a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. No one else is present.

This makes it a rather limited offer.

Are you really asking me to show you where Jesus preaches the gospel message to more than one person?

Mark 1:14-15:

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 3:14-19:

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Mark 10:45 confirms what the gospel message is:

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I can post more if you like.

The entire book of Acts describes how the Apostles also continued to preach to the Jews (and the Gentiles).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:51 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:25 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 219 (164664)
12-02-2004 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 8:38 AM


Re: Son of God
Purpledawn writes:

According to this the leaders were already set up to reject Jesus. It was already set up that he must be killed. So the Jewish people involved in this scenerio are blameless.

Matthew 18:7:

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 8:38 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 159 of 219 (164692)
12-02-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-02-2004 1:21 PM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
Are you really asking me to show you where Jesus preaches the gospel message to more than one person?
Don't confuse Paul's Gospel with the Good News that Jesus preached.

Jesus preached that the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent.

Mark 1 (Complete Jewish Bible)
14 After Yochanan had been arrested, Yeshua came into the Galil proclaiming the Good News from God: 15 "The time has come, God's Kingdom is near! Turn to God from your sins and believe the Good News!"

Jesus didn't mention his death until after Peter's confession we spoke of earlier.

The Good News was not about his death and resurrection, that's Paul's Gospel.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, not the righteous or Gentiles. He told them the Kingdom of God was at hand and that they needed to repent to be a part of it.

Since he was only sent to the lost, this would not consitute an offer to the entire Jewish Community.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 1:21 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 4:48 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 219 (164697)
12-02-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-02-2004 12:25 PM


Not Against Jesus
I'm not against the true teachings of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

I am against dogma and the traditions of man.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 12:25 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 219 (164709)
12-02-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 4:25 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Don't confuse Paul's Gospel with the Good News that Jesus preached.

Paul's Gospel?

Acts 20:17-25:

17 And from Miletus he [Paul] sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Purpledawn,

Have you so confused yourself that you now believe Paul had his own gospel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 4:25 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM dpardo has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 162 of 219 (164748)
12-02-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by dpardo
12-02-2004 4:48 PM


Re: John 3:16
Romans 2:16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

2Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Not confused at all.

quote:
Acts 20:24
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Paul testifies to the good news of God's grace. That is still not the Good News that Jesus preached to the Jews.

According to the NT the Law and the Prophets spoke of Jesus. Even Paul claimed that.

Show me!


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 4:48 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:43 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 164 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:59 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 219 (164750)
12-02-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 6:16 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

Paul testifies to the good news of God's grace. That is still not the Good News that Jesus preached to the Jews.

Your theories are at odds with the scriptures.

Paul preached what Jesus commanded him to preach.

Acts 23:11 (Near the end of Paul's ministry):

11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 9:09 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 166 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 10:43 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 219 (164753)
12-02-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by purpledawn
12-02-2004 6:16 PM


Re: John 3:16
Purpledawn writes:

According to the NT the Law and the Prophets spoke of Jesus. Even Paul claimed that.

Show me!

This will require time and much more study (and prayer!) as I am aware that to reason and persuade such things is no small task!

I am currently engaged in a project that takes up most of my free time but I will endeavor to get to it as soon as I can.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by purpledawn, posted 12-02-2004 6:16 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 990 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 165 of 219 (164764)
12-02-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by dpardo
12-02-2004 6:43 PM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
Your theories are at odds with the scriptures.
As I said before, I'm not required to believe Paul or believe in Paul for eternal life.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:43 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
910
11
12131415Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017