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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3057
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 166 of 219 (164771)
12-02-2004 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by dpardo
12-02-2004 6:43 PM


Re: John 3:16
Since PAUL never met Jesus in person, how can JESUS have comanded him to preach anything?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:43 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:16 PM ramoss has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 167 of 219 (164848)
12-03-2004 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by dpardo
12-02-2004 12:50 PM


insults
It is irrelevant only if God doesn't exist, IMO.

quote:
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.

quote:
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

it's irrelevent because, well, it's not relevant to the discussion.

i can snap back with quotes all day, but where does this get us? you implied that i'm not a christian, and said that i'm detracting from the faith others, when i'm only after the truth as a believer myself. and so i called you a fool.

shall we make a thread just for flinging biblical insults at each other? seems a little petty and unchristian to me, but oop there i go again!

now, back on topic, do you understand why the "offer" has to be in jewish literature for it to be aimed at jews? the implication is that they messed up something. but even paul, who doesn't normally take a good view of jews, seems to imply that salvation by faith does not apply to jews, but that they are not condemned. he says that by becoming a jew (being circumcised) you are held to the law, and faith is worthless (galations 5). this is describing two DISTINCT covenants, and that jesus's message was aimed at the gentiles.

i do not neccessarily agree. i don't like many of paul's ideas, and this is no exception. but this is related to my current crisis of faith, my big question at the moment, and so i don't have any answers as to how i feel about it.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-03-2004 07:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 12:50 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 12:33 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 169 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 12:35 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 219 (164892)
12-03-2004 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-03-2004 7:55 AM


Re: insults
Arachnophilia writes:

now, back on topic, do you understand why the "offer" has to be in jewish literature for it to be aimed at jews?

It doesn't have to be in any literature.

The question is, did Jesus and the Apostles actually live, preach, and teach?

If they didn't, then we have nothing to debate over.

But, if they did, and the evidence indicates that they did, then they presented God's offer to the Jews (and Gentiles).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by arachnophilia, posted 12-04-2004 6:12 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 219 (164893)
12-03-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
12-03-2004 7:55 AM


Re: insults
Arachnophilia writes:

i can snap back with quotes all day, but where does this get us? you implied that i'm not a christian, and said that i'm detracting from the faith others, when i'm only after the truth as a believer myself. and so i called you a fool.

shall we make a thread just for flinging biblical insults at each other? seems a little petty and unchristian to me, but oop there i go again!

I didn't post those verses to insult you.

As a fellow Christian, I'm trying to warn you to be careful how you go about searching for the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 12-03-2004 7:55 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2004 1:34 PM dpardo has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 219 (164903)
12-03-2004 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ramoss
12-02-2004 10:43 PM


Re: John 3:16
Ramoss writes:

Since PAUL never met Jesus in person, how can JESUS have comanded him to preach anything?

Ramoss,

In Acts 22, Paul, near the end of his ministry and accused of some of the Jews in Jerusalem, summarizes the events that led to his conversion from a Pharisee to a follower of Christ:

1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2004 10:43 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM dpardo has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 171 of 219 (164909)
12-03-2004 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by dpardo
12-03-2004 12:35 PM


Re: insults
is it dangerous to go searching for the truth in the bible and from bible scholars? or just in a way that the sbc doesn't approve?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 12:35 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:48 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 219 (164912)
12-03-2004 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by macaroniandcheese
12-03-2004 1:34 PM


Re: insults
Brennakimi writes:

is it dangerous to go searching for the truth in the bible and from bible scholars? or just in a way that the sbc doesn't approve?

I am all for searching and questioning, my contention is that, on our journey, we be careful how we express our questions and doubts.

If I am struggling with a particular scripture(s) at this point in time, and I say to my neighbor, "This is an unrealiable section", I may cause my neighbor to stumble.

Better for me to simply say, "I am struggling with this section" or, "I do not understand this section".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-03-2004 1:34 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 2:02 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 177 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2004 8:54 AM dpardo has responded
 Message 184 by arachnophilia, posted 12-04-2004 5:41 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3057
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 173 of 219 (164955)
12-03-2004 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by dpardo
12-03-2004 1:16 PM


Re: John 3:16
Quite so.

John never saw Jesus in person. He claims he had a vision. Many people claim to have a vision. Seeing a bright light like that is often due to
heat stroke, or delusions.

So, John cliamed he had some visions, heard some voices, and saw a big light.

That is not meeting Jesus. I will note that he people whome he argued with, that were alledgely the apostles of Jesus, and supposedly knew him in the flesh never left Judaism. Paul did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:16 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 5:09 PM ramoss has not yet responded
 Message 175 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 5:16 PM ramoss has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 219 (164966)
12-03-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ramoss
12-03-2004 4:27 PM


Ramoss writes:

John never saw Jesus in person. He claims he had a vision. Many people claim to have a vision. Seeing a bright light like that is often due to
heat stroke, or delusions.

So, John cliamed he had some visions, heard some voices, and saw a big light.

It is not possible to have a productive debate with you because you give yourself the freedom to pick and choose what you like out of scripture and discard what you don't like.

If you would like to start a thread regarding anything miraculous purported in the bible, I invite you to do so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 219 (164971)
12-03-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ramoss
12-03-2004 4:27 PM


Ramoss,

When I see something in the bible that gives me pause to wonder, I check to see whether or not it is consistent with other scripture.

Visions and intervention by God (or Angels) are consistent with other scripture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ramoss, posted 12-03-2004 4:27 PM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 9:54 AM dpardo has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1538 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 176 of 219 (165065)
12-04-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by dpardo
12-03-2004 1:48 PM


Re: insults
while i agree that we are meant to uplift each other, i do not think that, in a debate, one must guard against changing another's mind.... that's the very idea.

besides. if your faith is such that one person not believing what you believe will cause it to crumble... you're not going to last very long in this world. EVERYONE is going to say to you 'the whole bible is crap and god is a figment of your love-starved imagination'. why should it be a challenge to your faith if someone says 'i don't like this book or this verse, but it doesn't change the fact that i believe in this god'?

note he only discusses the things on which he is sure of his belief and he doesn't delve into his struggles here. (we're friends irl and discuss this all.the.time.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1067 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 177 of 219 (165094)
12-04-2004 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by dpardo
12-03-2004 1:48 PM


Spiritual Comfort Zone
quote:
If I am struggling with a particular scripture(s) at this point in time, and I say to my neighbor, "This is an unrealiable section", I may cause my neighbor to stumble.
I agree with brennakimi in Message 176

In Message 5 I agreed with ramoss that the offer should be within the Hebrew Bible since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.

In Message 56 to Phatboy, I stated clearly that I did not believe that Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews. I clearly stated I didn't want answers of opinion and belief. This was when you entered the debate.

That message should have given you an idea of how I feel about dogma and tradition and how I would handle this discussion.

Even in Message 118 when I made the statement about the book of John and gave evidence of why I considered it unreliable, I also said

quote:
Now if you trust the Book of John and believe that Jesus is God, so be it,

In Message 120 I tried to get you back on the track of the OP and hopefully away from the NT. Trust me, I have refrained from writing what I truly wanted to say because I felt the way the discussion was going it was going to tread on your comfort zone.

In Message 122 you opened the door concerning the book of John and Arach jumped on it. Maybe you forgot that this is in the "Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.

The bottom line is that I started this discussion to help me discern if a legitimate offer was truly made to the Jews before the death of Jesus.

I don't go to Bible Studies anymore because I can't have the discussion necessary to answer my questions for fear of putting someone in spiritual crisis, which makes the study useless for me.

In the "Faith and Belief" forum I try not to make statements that might cause someone to stumble, but in this forum and in a thread I started, I shouldn't have to stifle my thoughts and opinions.

If I did there would be no discussion. So if this discussion is going beyond your spiritual comfort zone, then let us know and bow out of the discussion.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-04-2004 10:26 AM purpledawn has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3057
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 178 of 219 (165101)
12-04-2004 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by dpardo
12-03-2004 5:16 PM


When I see people who claim visions from god,I suspect either delusion or con men.

That is in this day,or back then.

What Paul claims is irrelavent to any offers that the Jews supposedly got from God.

And it is relavent that the appostles that supposedly KNEW Jesus in the flesh stayed faithful Jews, while Paul went after the Gentiles, but only after seeing a 'vision'.

This message has been edited by ramoss, 12-04-2004 09:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 5:16 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by dpardo, posted 12-04-2004 10:47 AM ramoss has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 219 (165105)
12-04-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by purpledawn
12-04-2004 8:54 AM


Re: Spiritual Comfort Zone
Purpledawn writes:

In Message 5 I agreed with ramoss that the offer should be within the Hebrew Bible since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.

I answered this in Message 168.

In Message 122 you opened the door concerning the book of John and Arach jumped on it. Maybe you forgot that this is in the "Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.

The issue of the Book of John as divine revelation from God should be a separate thread.

I don't go to Bible Studies anymore because I can't have the discussion necessary to answer my questions for fear of putting someone in spiritual crisis, which makes the study useless for me.

In the "Faith and Belief" forum I try not to make statements that might cause someone to stumble, but in this forum and in a thread I started, I shouldn't have to stifle my thoughts and opinions.

If I did there would be no discussion. So if this discussion is going beyond your spiritual comfort zone, then let us know and bow out of the discussion.

It is possible to discuss any questions and doubts without making statements like this:

Purpledawn writes:

As I said the Book of John is an unreliable source. It carries no weight.

Do you understand what I am saying?

This is what you posted in claiming a book of scripture is not reliable:

Excerpt from "A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson 1987

The collapse of the Jewish--Christian church after 70 AD and the triumph of Hellenistic Christianity led the Jews, in turn, to castigate the Christians. ...Under the rule of Raban Gamaliel II, the Twelfth Benediction or Birkat ha-Minim (Benediction concerning heretics) was recast to apply to Christians and this seems to have been the point at which the remaining Jewish followers of Christ were turned out of the synagogue.

Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions:
For apostates may there be no hope, and may the Nazarenes and heretics suddenly perish.

During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. This makes the book of John an unreliable source.

Please consider what I have said to you.

This should probably be, as I said, another topic but, the issue you raise is not whether his followers would be allowed in the synagogues but rather, someone who "confessed Christ".

John 9:22:

22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2004 8:54 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 11:40 AM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 186 by purpledawn, posted 12-04-2004 7:13 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 219 (165107)
12-04-2004 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by ramoss
12-04-2004 9:54 AM


Ramoss writes:

And it is relavent that the appostles that supposedly KNEW Jesus in the flesh stayed faithful Jews, while Paul went after the Gentiles, but only after seeing a 'vision'.

Ramoss,

Even a cursory reading of Acts refutes what you say.

After Peter had preached the gospel message to Cornelius (a Gentile), Acts 11 says:

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 9:54 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ramoss, posted 12-04-2004 12:33 PM dpardo has not yet responded
 Message 183 by Amlodhi, posted 12-04-2004 1:21 PM dpardo has responded

  
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