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Author Topic:   Eternal and Forever: Unending or Just a Very Long Time?
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 16 of 26 (317068)
06-02-2006 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
06-02-2006 8:21 AM


aeon
quote:
As to the possibility of the "everlasting punishment" of the wicked and the "eternal life" of the righteous being the same, it doesn't exist. The Greek word, "aeonian" simply means, "pertaining to the age". "Aeonian," being the adjective form of "aeon," is descriptive of both the kind of life of the righteous and the kind of punishment of the wicked. In the strictest sense, it really has no reference to time at all but to the quality of that life or punishment. Does that do away with eternal life for the redeemed? Not at all, for it is clearly taught by many other scriptures throughout the Bible, but "aeon/aeonios" does not describe the duration of that life.
I don't quite agree with this.
The noun "Aeon" in Greek means 'century', i.e. a finite period of time. However, the adjective "Aeoni /os /a /o" means, literally, 'through the centuries'. The more prosaic translations are 'eternal', 'neverending' or 'everlasting'.
The adjective pertains to something that spans centuries without a finite end. In the strictest sense, it's only used to describe unbounded time span, i.e. everlasting.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 06-02-2006 8:21 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 06-10-2006 12:31 PM Legend has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 17 of 26 (317076)
06-02-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
06-02-2006 8:21 AM


Re: -—, ——
Good to know. Since I know how words can be used in many different ways even contrary to their literal meaning, I'm uncomfortable having to rely on a concordance; but it's all I have.
they are useful tools, just not always as dictionaries. it's not even an issue of "contrary to their literal meaning" but more of how that literal meaning gets rendered in another language. a lot of our idioms wouldn't make sense in other languages, just like if they wrote "to the world" in english we wouldn't understand the implications.
The idea of quality, I think, is more related to the usage of aion as an adjective in the NT. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate other usages in the NT.
i'm utterly unqualitifed to critique an argument about greek.
So it means the planet itself or the planet and its inhabitants as a whole? Of course if the inhabitants are gone, then not much to have a covenant with.
ah, yes. sorry for not being more specific. the inhabitants as well. it's like when we say "the whole world" we don't just mean the physical ground, but the cultures therein as well.
Or to be a covenant as long as the planet exists?
So it does really deal with a very long period of time, not a time without end.
well, more literally, it's until the world ends. less literally -- and by far the more common usage in modern hebrew -- it means "forever." that's not to say, however, that this is what the original authors meant. modern hebrew is largely based off biblical hebrew, and the traditions of what certain things meant could concievably have affected the modern idioms. i'll look a bit later tonight (going out in a bit) and see if i can find an specific usage that demands it mean one or the other.
Even our own word doesn't mean without end.
well, yes and no. it does mean "without end" because that's how we read it. to origin of the word may have meant something else.
So given what you have told me about olam, when the OT was translated into the LXX, they used the word aion, which supposedly means age. From my viewpoint that would show that the translators didn't understand the usage of olam to mean time without end. Is this a logical conclusion?
i'm not sure. as i said, i know very, very little about greek. it might simply be that there is no comparable word in greek? it's bit of a hard phrase to translate. but, should the greek word specifically NOT mean eternity, and CANNOT mean eternity, AND there is another word that would have been better fit for eternity, it would be a rather strong indication that "ad-olam" and "l'olam" were not read as "forever."
I couldn't find "olam" being used as an adjective the way that "aion" is in the NT.
while a lot of hebrew grammar is pretty straightforward, there are some weird little exceptions. i posted on above, where olam was being used like an adjective as part of a noun phrase.
But the word used for eternal is "qedem".
that's actually a different idea. it might actually be closer to the greek "age." qedem is the word for "east" but is also used repeatedly to mean "ancient." in the strictest sense, i suppose we could say it's from the beginning of creation, or before. but implication, i think is like eternal but in reverse (when applied to god, anyways). i'll have to check...


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 18 of 26 (319933)
06-10-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Legend
06-02-2006 6:39 PM


Aeonian Life Etc.
After what Arach has stated, I understand where they were going with the noun, but the adjective form is still a puzzlement.
This site entitled The Hidden Aeonian Realm also brings out the idea that as an adjective it doesn't describe a length of time. Although this article presents the idea of that the type is hidden or spiritual. Something not of this world.
Paul wrote, ”we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is aeonian’ (2 Cor 4: 18). The word aeonian describes those things human eyes have not seen, and ears have not heard, because they belong to the unseen realm of the kingdom of God.
Not sure if I agree with this thought yet. Still working on it.
quote:
The noun "Aeon" in Greek means 'century', i.e. a finite period of time. However, the adjective "Aeoni /os /a /o" means, literally, 'through the centuries'. The more prosaic translations are 'eternal', 'neverending' or 'everlasting'.
But if the noun means a finite period of time how does it then mean the complete opposite as an adjective? I've been trying to think of similar situations in english, but keep getting interrupted.
While aion means "age," aionios, being an adjective, means "agelasting," or "aeonian," or "agelong."
Even this meaning is finite, still undefined, but has an end. I can see where the adjective would carry the meaning of longlasting, but not unending.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Legend, posted 06-02-2006 6:39 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Legend, posted 06-15-2006 5:53 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 19 of 26 (321997)
06-15-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by purpledawn
06-10-2006 12:31 PM


Re: Aeonian Life Etc.
quote:
These are the verses in Matthew that use the noun form of "aion". None of them are translated as forever. They speak of the current age (world) or the end of the age. So the verse you shared would reasonably be the end of the age and not the physical world. The author's audience probably understood it that way.
The use of the noun in singular 'aion' always refers to a finite period of time. In modern Greek it always refers to a 100-year time period, i.e. we live in the 21st 'aion'. The only exception to this rule is the phrase "eis ton aiona ton aionon" (literally: to the century of centuries) used to indicate an immeasurable period of time, i.e. forever.
When the noun is used in its plural form 'aiones' and in the absence of a numerical or other predicative qualifier (e.g. 2 aiones = 2 centuries = 200 years) it can only be translated as referring to an immeasurable period of time, practically everlasting. In ancient texts and the NT the phrase 'eis tous aiones' (literally: towards the centuries) is being used and it can only be translated to indicate something that lasts beyond our ability to measure, i.e. everlasting.
The adjective "aionios" indicates something that spans an indefinite/immeasurable number of centuries, i.e. for all intents and purposes eternal.
quote:
Then we have the noun, "aion", used as an adjective, "aionios", which is translated as eternal in Matthew. We have eternal fire, eternal life, and eternal punishment.
it's not a case of the noun being used as an adjective, "aionios" is an adjective in its own right and it is used to assign the attribute of immeasurable / indefinite duration.
purpledawn writes:
But if the noun means a finite period of time how does it then mean the complete opposite as an adjective?
dunno, I didn't make up the rules . I suppose it's because it's derived from the unqualified plural form of the noun which denotes unbounded duration. I can't think of an English word equivalent off the top of my head.
quote:
Also in this article entitled Olam/Aion/Aionian/Aionias (by Mike Burke), Burke and others suggest that the usage of olam/aionios may deal more with quality than duration.
this is like saying that the adjective 'colourful' deals with size !

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 06-10-2006 12:31 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 20 of 26 (322261)
06-16-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Legend
06-15-2006 5:53 PM


Re: Aeonian Life Etc.
So it does mean a very long or undetermined time, but not a time without an end. The end is just beyond our measure.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Legend, posted 06-15-2006 5:53 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Legend, posted 06-17-2006 5:07 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 21 of 26 (322656)
06-17-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by purpledawn
06-16-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Aeonian Life Etc.
err...technically yes, I suppose, though semantically it's the same as 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 06-16-2006 12:17 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2006 6:12 AM Legend has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 26 (322827)
06-18-2006 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Legend
06-17-2006 5:07 PM


Aidios
But there are instances where it is used that we know the situation is not without end.
Jeremiah 522
'Do you not fear Me?' declares the LORD. 'Do you not tremble in My presence ? For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it. Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.
During natural disasters the waves do cross over the beach.
Matthew
18:8
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
18:9
"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
The fire in Gehenna no longer burns.
I did find two verses where a different word is used to mean without end.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
and
Jude 1:6
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Interesting that this word isn't used concerning humans.
scholars
Aidios

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Legend, posted 06-17-2006 5:07 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Legend, posted 06-18-2006 7:27 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 23 of 26 (322836)
06-18-2006 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
06-18-2006 6:12 AM


Re: Aidios
Jeremiah was not written in Greek, so I can't comment on it.
Matthew 18:8 uses the adjective "aionios" which is rightly translated as 'eternal'. The fact that the fire no longer burns has nothing to do with the writer's intention to convey a meaning of everlasting.
Romans 1:20 and Jude 1:6 uses the adjective "aidios" which is a synonym for everlasting, albeit in a more abstract sense.
The subtle difference between the two is that "aionios" implies something so durable that it's beyond our ability to measure while "aidios" implies something outside time altogether.
as an example, one could describe the Universe using either of those terms. That doesn't mean that the universe is never going to end, it just means that for all intents and purposes it won't.
Most writers in the links you mentioned use theological bias in their translation of the phrases and split semantic hairs in order to support their POVs.
IMHO, when you see either of the adjectives in Greek text you can safely assume that the author describes something of unending duration.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2006 6:12 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2006 12:46 PM Legend has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 26 (322901)
06-18-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Legend
06-18-2006 7:27 AM


Re: Aidios
quote:
IMHO, when you see either of the adjectives in Greek text you can safely assume that the author describes something of unending duration.
quote:
Matthew 18:8 uses the adjective "aionios" which is rightly translated as 'eternal'. The fact that the fire no longer burns has nothing to do with the writer's intention to convey a meaning of everlasting.
IOW, from the writer's view at the moment of writing, the fire or noun of choice would never end or at least they don't feel it will end in their lifetime.
Since we have seen the end of some things deemed eternal, their use of eternal isn't necessarily a factual statement.
So we really don't know if they meant it factually from knowledge or just a figure of speech. My guess is figure of speech.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Legend, posted 06-18-2006 7:27 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Legend, posted 06-18-2006 1:40 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 25 of 26 (322908)
06-18-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by purpledawn
06-18-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Aidios
purpledawn writes:
IOW, from the writer's view at the moment of writing, the fire or noun of choice would never end or at least they don't feel it will end in their lifetime.
yes, absolutely. The writer thought that the fire would keep burning through immeasurable centuries. In this instance he was obviously wrong, but that's another story.
purpledawn writes:
Since we have seen the end of some things deemed eternal, their use of eternal isn't necessarily a factual statement.
So we really don't know if they meant it factually from knowledge or just a figure of speech. My guess is figure of speech.
no, no more than any other predictive statement in any text. It's just an expression of hope, desire, belief, etc. They thought that the fire would be eternal. As it turned out it wasn't. Not the only place in the Bible where they got things wrong.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2006 12:46 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 26 of 26 (329494)
07-06-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


Ask The Real Experts
As Legend has already commented, the sources you are using for your study are hardly professional. (Mike Burke's articles, for example, show an obvious lack of training in both Greek and English grammar.) If you really want to know whether a particular translation of a word is viable, then you should consult some of the more advanced works written by men who spent their entire lives studying the language in question. In this particular scenario, I would recommend that you go to your local public library and ask if they have either an Arndt and Gingrich Greek Lexicon (available on amazon for $13) or an unabridged Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon ($150 on amazon). For Hebrew, you could try the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament ($32 on amazon).
Whatever source you decide to use, it would be wise to ensure that your copy of the material has not been abridged in any way. Unfortunately, this usually rules out any of the online lexicons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2006 7:50 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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