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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 346 of 381 (739006)
10-19-2014 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by RAZD
10-19-2014 10:13 AM


Re: How to Debate Atheists - with the wrong foot first?
Second you don't start a rational discussion with insulting overtones and innuendo.

What did you consider to be the insults and innuendo? I'm hard pressed to see anything like that in his post or on the first page of his web site.

This is not an accusation. I probably missed something.

So if you do come back, feel free to start a new thread so we can discuss your problems.

Wow RAZD.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2014 10:13 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 347 of 381 (739007)
10-19-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
10-19-2014 11:04 AM


Re: Back To Debate With Theists
Did you read the whole paragraph?

quote:
Second, and perhaps a bigger issue is that there is no "Christian GodTM". Speaking as a Christian. the God that Calvinists try to market is vile, evil, unworthy of worship. The God marketed by the Christian Cult of Ignorance such as seen in the Chick Tracts is just pitiful and laughable.

Almost every chapter of Club Christian markets another and quite different god.

Phat writes:

2) Is it reasonable to assume that GOD is whom Jesus called His Father?

But that has no meaning and tells us nothing.

Phat writes:

Is it reasonable to assume that there can be an agreement or consensus of a Christian GodTM through the study of whom Jesus believed GOD to be?

Perhaps if you bring in that object and place it on the table to be examined but the evidence so far says "No it is not possible". The Calvinists market a vile, evil Christian god that elects who will be saved. The CCoI markets a not very bright conman Christian god who fakes all the evidence so the earth looks old and humans look like just more primates. Many Christians claim the Christian god they market is the real god but the ones Jews (they market their fair share of different gods) or Muslims market are not GOD.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 10-19-2014 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 348 of 381 (739014)
10-19-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
10-19-2014 1:47 AM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Phat writes:

Even adults whose parents are still living go to them for advice, encouragement and feedback.


Sure, but they don't "obey" their parents. They learned their values from their parents but they make their own decisions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 10-19-2014 1:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:14 AM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 349 of 381 (739090)
10-20-2014 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by RAZD
10-19-2014 10:13 AM


Re: How to Debate Atheists - with the wrong foot first?
Third you should debate with atheists the same way you should debate with anyone else -- with respect, honesty, integrity, and offer rational arguments supported by evidence rather than just opinion.

He's not writing generally about "how to debate", but specifically: "How to win religious debates against atheists' typical arguments".

Some of the stuff he says is decent advice, but it seems to all boil down to being motivated by proselytizing.

So for me, its pretty pointless. My thought was: "who the hell cares? Why should "winning" against atheists be anything I care about?" And then I realized: Oh yeah, I'm not evangelical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by RAZD, posted 10-19-2014 10:13 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Stile, posted 10-20-2014 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 350 of 381 (739091)
10-20-2014 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by New Cat's Eye
10-20-2014 9:10 AM


Re: How to Debate Atheists - with the wrong foot first?
Cat Sci writes:

And then I realized: Oh yeah, I'm not evangelical.

It's okay.
If you apply yourself and drink your milk, you'll get there one day


This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2014 9:10 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2014 10:48 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 351 of 381 (739092)
10-20-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Stile
10-20-2014 10:33 AM


Re: How to Debate Atheists - with the wrong foot first?
Cat Sci writes:

And then I realized: Oh yeah, I'm not evangelical.


It's okay.
If you apply yourself and drink your milk, you'll get there one day

Is it the milk, or the application of myself, that gets me around my severe case of apathy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Stile, posted 10-20-2014 10:33 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 817 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 352 of 381 (739152)
10-21-2014 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by NoNukes
10-17-2014 1:07 PM


quote:
I'm pretty sure that djufo's point is neither that he does not believe in George Washington, nor that he requires direct evidence. His point is that all of those contemporary writers are dead. What we have left at this point is writings and artifacts. Yet we all believe in George Washington and disbelieve that the Sumerians were taught by aliens.

I don't know what djufo thinks except by what he writes. If he meant to use this as an analogy it was poorly constructed. The contemporary writers of the Founding Fathers are dead, but we have their original works in their own hand. We have the letters of the Founding Fathers in their own hand. We have contemporary painters and sculpters who fashioned likenesses of the Founding Fathers while they lived. We have eyewitness testimony corroborating these events. The preponderance of the evidence for their existence is overwhelming. Now please apply that same standard to Jesus Christ, for example. There are no independent verifications of his existence. There are the anonymous and apochryphal Gospels, but they are without verification or corroboration. There are no contemporaneous historical accounts, although there were historians living in and around Jerusalem at the same time as the events depicted in the Gospels. There are no paintings or sculptural renderings of anything equated with Jesus that were contemporaneous with him. Bart Ehrman has made a study of this issue and as a historian has come to the conclusion that the Jesus figure in the Bible is mostly mythical. In fact there is as much evidence for Hercules as there is for Jesus Christ, but few people suggest that he existed.

Edited by MFFJM2, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2014 1:07 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 360 by NoNukes, posted 10-22-2014 10:18 PM MFFJM2 has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 353 of 381 (739245)
10-22-2014 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by ringo
10-19-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Perhaps they dont obey their parents, but chances are that in many ways they follow the example that their parents set. In other ways they don't.

I suppose that the arguments can be broken down into questions.

Were humans meant to think for themselves and write their own law, or was a law given to us at one time, broadened now into an age of grace.

FYI I don't agree with the philosophy that we are to correct God....at least not the One we have now. We are charged to correct ourselves and try and do our best, but it is unclear what it means to be in communion with God, allowing His Grace to make it possible and whether or not He empowers us to improve our laws and gives us grace to face ourselves in the mirror as a culture.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 10-19-2014 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by jar, posted 10-22-2014 9:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:31 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 354 of 381 (739249)
10-22-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
10-22-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
FYI I don't agree with the philosophy that we are to correct God....at least not the One we have now.

But what does the Bible say?

In the Bible (all Canons) God struggles with the issue that morality, right & wrong, are seldom clear and concrete and that mankind has the say capabilities of questioning right and wrong as God does.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 355 of 381 (739280)
10-22-2014 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
10-22-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Phat writes:

We are charged to correct ourselves and try and do our best, but it is unclear what it means to be in communion with God....


It is indeed unclear because, as I have pointed out to you repeatedly, those who claim to be in communion with God often do a poorer job of correcting themselves than those who are not. What's the point of the communion if His advice doesn't take hold?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 9:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 356 of 381 (739316)
10-22-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by ringo
10-22-2014 12:31 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
You can lead a church to (Living) Water but you can't make them drink.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 4:21 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 357 of 381 (739320)
10-22-2014 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
10-22-2014 4:08 PM


Re: Unable to meet God due to detached observer status
Phat writes:

You can lead a church to (Living) Water but you can't make them drink.


Good one.

But then what's the point of leading them?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 4:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 4:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 358 of 381 (739323)
10-22-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by ringo
10-22-2014 4:21 PM


Many Are Cold And Few Are Frozen
But then what's the point of leading them?

It beats trying to sell them gold chains and holy water online..

God foreknew that Lucifer would rebel, but He never made him rebel.

A leader may suspect that most of the people in his step study class wont listen to him, but he is charged to try and do his best anyway.


...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 4:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 10-23-2014 12:34 PM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 359 of 381 (739339)
10-22-2014 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by MFFJM2
10-21-2014 5:39 AM


dupe

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by MFFJM2, posted 10-21-2014 5:39 AM MFFJM2 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 360 of 381 (739340)
10-22-2014 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by MFFJM2
10-21-2014 5:39 AM


We have eyewitness testimony corroborating these events. The preponderance of the evidence for their existence is overwhelming. Now please apply that same standard to Jesus Christ, for example.

Two things.

First, you yourself denigrated the value of eye witness testimony in your post. Not sure what the purpose is of trying to re-elevate it here.

Second, the comparison at hand is not to Jesus Christ, but to whoever djufo claims informed the Sumerians.

If he meant to use this as an analogy it was poorly constructed.

Which appears to mean only that you missed the point. I think it is quite obvious that djufo was engaging in analogy.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by MFFJM2, posted 10-21-2014 5:39 AM MFFJM2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by MFFJM2, posted 10-23-2014 5:53 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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