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Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 313 (700920)
06-09-2013 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
06-09-2013 3:50 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
I didn't make it up, Ringo, it's what a number of commentators on the Tower of Babel say, both about the dispersion and about the height. They couldn't replenish the earth without dispersing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 06-09-2013 3:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 06-09-2013 6:03 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 257 of 313 (700921)
06-09-2013 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
06-09-2013 5:48 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
Faith writes:

I didn't make it up, Ringo, it's what a number of commentators on the Tower of Babel say, both about the dispersion and about the height.


So it's a second-hand fiction that isn't in the Bible.

Faith writes:

They couldn't replenish the earth without dispersing.


That's what I said. The dispersal was incidental. It was also necessary to go downhill from Mount Ararat but the downhill part was incidental. It wasn't a command from God to always go downhill.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 5:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 8:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 258 of 313 (700942)
06-09-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
06-09-2013 6:03 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
I really don't get what you think you are saying. What they were refusing to do was to disperse, the dispersal that was necessary for replenishing the earth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 06-09-2013 6:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2013 11:03 PM Faith has responded
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 06-10-2013 12:02 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 259 of 313 (700957)
06-09-2013 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-09-2013 8:58 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
What they were refusing to do was to disperse, the dispersal that was necessary for replenishing the earth.

I think the best support for your position comes from Genesis 11:4:

quote:
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city, and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

The problem I see is that the imperative to Noah was to replenish the earth, and 11:1 suggests that this was happening. Just because some people are congregating does not mean that God was being disobeyed in this respect.

Further, the author quotes God as giving a completely objection to the tower of Babel.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 8:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 12:23 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 313 (700961)
06-10-2013 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by NoNukes
06-09-2013 11:03 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
You are right about that being the best evidence for this particular claim. I'm going by the commentaries because I haven't studied or meditated on the incident myself, and until I do that I'm not going to find fault with the commentators who have a good reputation. When a number of them agree it's a pretty good sign they have a good understanding of the passage.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2013 11:03 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 261 of 313 (700991)
06-10-2013 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-09-2013 8:58 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
Faith writes:

What they were refusing to do was to disperse, the dispersal that was necessary for replenishing the earth.


The necessary dispersal had already happened, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to come back together at Babel. You can't have a reaction before the action. It isn't necessary to read any disobedience into the passage.

It's funny that I take the Bible more literally than you do. You accept the word of the commentators over what the Bible actually says. If it isn't in the Bible, you should be wary of it, no matter how reputable the commentators are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 8:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:39 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 313 (701038)
06-10-2013 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
06-10-2013 12:02 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
Babel is in the general vicinity of where Noah and family debarked, the dispersal called for was across the entire world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 06-10-2013 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 06-13-2013 12:23 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 265 by Coragyps, posted 06-13-2013 4:55 PM Faith has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 263 of 313 (701200)
06-13-2013 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
06-07-2013 7:54 AM


The woman in Revelation
Look, I never said and none of the people I referenced said that the statue was a replica of the creature in Revelation, it's a simple equation of a woman on a beast with that idea.

But the point we've been trying to make is that it's a stupid connection. It may remind you of the words 'woman riding a beast' but it is clearly not the woman described in Revelation. You can only make a connection if you ignore all of the words describing the woman and the beast.

Now, if I spent all my days rereading Revelation over and over again I could look at this statue and say it reminded me of the woman in Revelation,

simply because it's a woman. And I'd be correct - because I'm obsessed and everything reminds me of something in Revelation. You, however, would be quite correct if you pointed out to me that it clearly has nothing to do with Revelation since the woman in question is not riding a beast. Similarly, we are correct in pointing out to you that, whatever connections your brain makes and regardless of what something reminds you off, the statue of Europa clearly has no connection to Revelation, since it is not at all like the description in Revelation in any respect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 7:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 3:23 AM caffeine has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 264 of 313 (701204)
06-13-2013 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
06-10-2013 6:39 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
Faith writes:

Babel is in the general vicinity of where Noah and family debarked, the dispersal called for was across the entire world.


Stop making up nonsense. There is nothing in the Bible account to suggest that there was any kind of a "dispersal problem". For God's sake, read what the Bible says, not what some goober says it says. You're making Christians look bad.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5292
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 265 of 313 (701207)
06-13-2013 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
06-10-2013 6:39 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
Babel is in the general vicinity of where Noah and family debarked

And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
(Genesis 11:2)

These things are not the same.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 06-13-2013 5:37 PM Coragyps has not yet responded
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 3:20 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29428
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 266 of 313 (701208)
06-13-2013 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Coragyps
06-13-2013 4:55 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
But it is so much easier to claim to be a Bible Christian when you can just keep making shit up like Faith does and don't have to pay attention to what the Bible actually says.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Coragyps, posted 06-13-2013 4:55 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 313 (701212)
06-14-2013 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Coragyps
06-13-2013 4:55 PM


Re: Tower of Babel
"General vicinity" means the Middle East basically, probably you have a smaller area in mind than I did. Nobody knows for sure where the ark landed but one likely area is in Asia Minor or what is now Turkey, and Babel was founded southeast from there, maybe about a thousand miles, but hardly as far as God commanded them to disperse. India, China, Africa, Europe would have been more like "replenishing the earth."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Coragyps, posted 06-13-2013 4:55 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 313 (701213)
06-14-2013 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by caffeine
06-13-2013 8:23 AM


Re: The woman in Revelation
This is of course a very subjective judgment. Some Christians happen to judge the statue of Europa as I've described. Yours doesn't even involve a beast but you think it's the equivalent of ours?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by caffeine, posted 06-13-2013 8:23 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by caffeine, posted 06-14-2013 4:16 AM Faith has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1346
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 269 of 313 (701215)
06-14-2013 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
06-14-2013 3:23 AM


Re: The woman in Revelation
Of course whatever you think trumps whatever some Christians happen to think. I guess that counts as objective argument to you.

No, I've explained what trumps what these particular Christians believe. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty grasping it.

The woman in Revelation is clothed. The statue of Europa is naked.

The woman in Revelation is carrying a cup. Europa is empty-handed.

The woman in Revelation is bedecked in precious stones. Europa isn't.

The beast in Revelation has seven heads. Zeus, in the statue, has one.

The beast in Revelation has ten horns. Zeus, in the statue, has two.

In short, the statue of Europa differs from the description of the woman riding a beast in Revelation in every single named detail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 3:23 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 06-14-2013 4:30 AM caffeine has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 313 (701216)
06-14-2013 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by caffeine
06-14-2013 4:16 AM


Re: The woman in Revelation
Yes you can tick off all those differences and to your mind that makes us wrong. Again, this is all a subjective judgment, we CAN'T be wrong. This argument is really ridiculous. We're perfectly capable of toting up the differences ourselves. Obviously to us that's all unnecessary, but since you think it's necessary you actually think that makes you RIGHT?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by caffeine, posted 06-14-2013 4:16 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by caffeine, posted 06-14-2013 4:59 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 272 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2013 5:21 AM Faith has responded
 Message 273 by jar, posted 06-14-2013 8:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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