Any comment W_Fortenberry?

Hi W_F,Nice to hear from you again.Thanks for the post, I will respond as soon as I can, which will be more than likely next weekend sometime.I have an emormous workload this week that I really need to deal with first before I can give your post the respect it deserves.I hope this is okBrian.

Just a comment on your use of Jeremiah 31.Given that 3 areas are listed there are only 6 possible orders in which they could be built up, even if there were no geographical reasons to prefer a particular order. So the order is not that impressive, but as I will explain even this rests on a questionable interpretation.Jeremiah 30-31 is one prophecy. It makes it clear even in verse 3 of Jeremiah 30 that one of the major points of the prophecy is the return of the Lost Tribes of Israel

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For behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' The LORD says, 'I will also bring them back to theland that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

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So far the best that we can say is that it has not been fulfilled.While the verses you list do indeed list the areas you mention there is no clear indication that this represents the order in which these areas will be built up. There is no narrative in which the building is described - just a list of areas. Indeed, if we were to take any order of events from this prophecy, we would have to say that the return of the Lost Tribes - which is mentioned in the first few verses of this prophecy (30:1-3) - precedes the building, which is not mentioned until the last few (31:38-40, 40 being the last verse). Of course this has not yet occurred so if you wush to use the order of the verses as an order of events the building referred to cannot have begun yet, since eit must await the arrival of the Lost Tribes. It follows then that the best argument available to you is the unremarkable fulfilment of the areas mentioned being built upon, without relying on the order.
Hardly an impressive example of prophecy fulfilment.

I'll address the ones that weren't able to be written as hindsight.

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B. Israel to be preserved

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Isa 49:8-26, Eze, 6:8-10, Eze 11:14-21

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This prophecy is fulfilled in that the Jewish people still exist today.

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C. Israel to be restored

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Isa 49:8-26, Eze 20:33-44, Eze 28:25-26, Eze 34:20-31, Eze 36, Eze 37, Eze 39:25-29

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This prophecy did not begin to be fulfilled until the early 1900's and is still being fulfilled today.

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D. Jerusalem to be enlarged

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Jer 31:38-40, Zech 14:10

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If you look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and read what the settlers have stated, it would be quite clear that they're doing many of these things *because* the Torah prophecies them. It is one of the main driving forces between the settlement movement (that, and the subsidies). If there's ever a definition of self-fulfilling prophecy, that's it.It's also one of the biggest sources of conflict in the region When you take land to build a settlement, that means that someone else (who lived there before you) is losing it at the same time - generally quite unwillingly. The infrastructure to defend the settlements further excaberates the problem - "settler-only" roads which crisscross the West Bank and Gaza, making trips of a few miles take hours because of checkpoints; regular, invasive soldier patrols; etc.Concerning prophecies, what about Revelations (ya know, the only prophecy that's not more than a few lines that can be interpreted any way you want)? Sure, revelations is rather obtuse, but one thing is clear: it's about the end of the world. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

PaulK,Thank you for the correction. You pointed out that the Bible did not state that the areas of the city would be built up in any specific order. This is correct. I should have noticed this earlier. However, this error on my part does not negate that the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:38-40 has been fulfilled exactly as predicted in the Bible.You also made mention of the Lost Tribes as being part of this passage, yet I have been unable to find mention of them within these chapters. In fact, I have not found any mention of "the Lost Tribes" anywhere in Scripture. Could you please inform us of whom you are referring to, why you refer to them as "the Lost Tribes," and what relevence they have to this particular prophecy?

Rei,You claimed, In reference to the prophecies of Jeremiah 30 and 31, the Bible states, "in the latter days ye shall consider it. (Jeremiah 30:24)" Your statement, then, is confirmation of this prophecy that the Bible would still be commonly known in the latter days.Besides this, if I were to write in my diary and predict that my great, great, great grandkids will restore my house, then their restoration of my house would be fulfillment of that prediction regardless of whether or not they read my diary; for in predicting that my house will be restored, I am also predicting that it will remain. In predicting that my descendents will restore it, I am also predicting that I will have descendents at the time of its restoration. Thus my prediction would not be a self-fulfilling prediction. In the same way, we cannot claim that the biblical prophecies I mentioned are self-fulfilling, for they rest on the prophetic claim of the continuation of the Jewish people.

I'm surprised that you don't know. The "Lost Tribes" as those of the Kingdom of Israel (as opposed to Judah) who were taken into exile by the Assyrians and lost to history. That is all the tribes, except Judah and Benjamin (see 1 Kings 12 for the division and 2 Kings 17 for the fall of Israel).And I find it odd that you can't find the references when I quoted one of them for you. Jeremiah 30:3 makes it clear that the return in the following verses includes the tribes belonging to both kingdoms, Israel and Judah. That is repeated in 31:31. Jeremiah 31:18-20 makes specific references to the tribe of Ephraim (who as descendants of Joseph are "childen" of Rachel).

I came across another very important fulfillment of prophecy while researching for the thread on the lineage of Jesus. Here is an excerpt from that thread in which I show that the Old Testament predicted the year in which Christ would die.

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...That time can be found in Daniel 9:25-26. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: The weeks mentioned here in Daniel refer to the Jewish sabbatical arrangement of years: seven weeks equals 49 years, and 62 weeks equals 434 years. Adding 49 to 434, we find that Daniel prophesied that Messiah would be cut off 483 years after the command was given to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. According to Nehemiah 2:1-8, the command to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes or 450 BC. Now if we count 483 years after 450 BC, we arrive at AD 33. This is the date given in the Old Testament for the Messiah being cut off. It is the due time to which Paul refers in his epistles. And it is the year in which Jesus Christ died on the cross: not for Himself, but as a ransom for all, dying for the ungodly.

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PaulK,Thanks for the quick response. You say that the "lost Tribes" refers to those who are of any tribe other than Judah or Benjamin. You also claim that the prophecies of Jeremiah 30 and 31 are not fulfilled because those of the "Lost Tribes" have not returned. Does that mean that you believe all modern day Israelis to be descendents of either Judah or Benjamin?

I don't consider the tribes to be literally descendants of individuals in the way the Bible tells it. However the "Lost Tribes" are the people of the Kingdom of Israel, which supposedly formed ten of the tribes, and they are lost to history.

With regard to this challenge, the earlier decree of Cyrus (as mentioned in Ezra 1) is more likely meant - and every source I have found puts the accession of Ataxerxes at 464 BC, which would make his twentieth year 445 BC.Moreover there is a serious problem with any intepretation of the prophecy as referring to Jesus - the events of the final "week" do not fit. Jerusalem was eventually besieged and taken by Rome - but more than thirty years later. The chronology better fits the events of the Seleucid domination of Israel and the Maccabean revolt.

That is very interresting. If these tribes are truly lost to history, then is it possible that they could have returned without our knowing that they are the "Lost Tribes"?

My mistake. I was aware of the 445 date but was unable at the initial writing to adequately research it, and I neglected to indicate this in my quote. I am still researching this myself, but for now let me direct you to this site for more information on dating this prophecy.

I would say that since they are lost in the sense that their culture has been lost that a return - and certainly a return as described in Jeremaiah would be impossible without supernatural intervention.

I certainly would not trust that site. I've seen the same rubbish before. in my own investigations. The "Prophetic Years" business for instance is an obvious fabrication to try to make the numbers come out "right". Even then he has to put the date of the Crucifixion as 32 AD, contrary to the accepted view (30 or 32 AD).Indeed investigating the rest of the site I find that the author is very greatly distorting the facts. For instance the claim that "the Book of Daniel existed in documented form almost three centuries before Christ was born" (Telnet Communications - High Speed Internet & Home Phone Solutions) is an outright falsehood. There is no such documentation.

I agree with you that the return of the Jews would require supernatural intervention, and this is one of the reasons that I have presented this prophecy as evidence of the existence of God. The Jews have returned and are continuing to return to the land of Israel at an amazing rate. You have not demonstrated any way in which these prophecies could not refer to the return which we have witnessed.