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Author Topic:   The Bible has no contradictions
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 136 of 221 (597764)
12-23-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
12-23-2010 9:27 PM


Re: "OUR" image -- a grammatical contradiction
jar writes:

Imperial We; the Majestic plural.

it might be something similar, but that likely would have been quite anachronistic for the source. and he doesn't use it speaking of himself to other; only speaking to himself.

or, perhaps, the royal "we" derives from this somehow?

Edited by arachnophilia, : quote, since this is the top of the page now.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 12-23-2010 9:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28427
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 137 of 221 (597767)
12-23-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by arachnophilia
12-23-2010 9:44 PM


Re: "OUR" image -- a grammatical contradiction
Likely the latter.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by arachnophilia, posted 12-23-2010 9:44 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 138 of 221 (597924)
12-25-2010 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Graven Images
quote:
Whatever you do, don't make graven images

Exodus 20:4- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Deuteronomy 4:23- Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

But let me tell you the proper way to make some graven images.

Exodus 25:18- And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19- And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

Exodus 25:20- And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.


Hopefully you read the issue surrounding those verses and not just a contradiction list.

Pecel, which is translated as graven image, refers to something carved and then worshiped. IOW, idols. It isn't referring to just anything carved for decoration or used in the worship of YHWH such as the cherubim.

Graven image refers to an idol carved in wood or stone that is worshiped as a god or in place of a god.

Show me that the Priestly writer in Exodus and the Deuteronomist were speaking of general decorative carvings and not objects made to worship.

Per the Documentary Hypothesis, the Priestly writer wrote Exodus 20:4 and Exodus 25. Notice the cherubims are beaten or hammered work, not carved.

This isn't a contradiction.

Edited by purpledawn, : ABE: Graven

Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 12-26-2010 5:45 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 221 (597960)
12-26-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Psalms and Proverbs
quote:
Psalms 58:10- The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked

Proverbs 24:17- Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:


Psalms is a song expressing what the people felt. The song isn't telling people to rejoice.

The proverbs are wisdom gathered through the ages.

So one is telling us it isn't wise to gloat (Proverbs) and the other shows us that people still feel like gloating when the enemy suffers (Psalms).

This isn't a contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 140 of 221 (597966)
12-26-2010 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by frako
12-20-2010 11:41 AM


Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
Ezra 2:6- The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.

Nehemiah 7:11- The Children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab two thousand eight hundred and eighteen


Did you compare the lists of returnees? There are many differences, but I wouldn't call them contradictions. We have no way of knowing if the numbers matched when originally written or not. Neither list adds up to the total given and we don't know if they did when originally written either. Given the number of times this story has probably been copied by hand, I would assume mistakes before contradictions.

Also if you notice there is a slight difference in the presentation. Nehemiah supposedly located the record of the genealogies and copied what was written in it. Ezra doesn't make that statement. The author doesn't say that Ezra and Nehemiah were pulling the information from the same place. What Nehemiah found may have been the final list.

Just because the lists don't match, doesn't mean it's a contradiction.

quote:
2 Samuel 8:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.


Same issue. We don't have the original to know if the numbers were actually different. We still have the possibility for ancient "typos".

Chronicles is a later writing and may have had more information at the time of writing.

I see these more as copying mistakes or just differences in available data. These are not contradictions.

Does the overall point of the story or event contradict the overall point of the other author?

Edited by purpledawn, : Hit wrong button


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by frako, posted 12-20-2010 11:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 6:08 AM purpledawn has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 141 of 221 (597967)
12-26-2010 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by purpledawn
12-25-2010 4:11 PM


Re: Graven Images
purpledawn writes:

Per the Documentary Hypothesis, the Priestly writer wrote Exodus 20:4 and Exodus 25. Notice the cherubims are beaten or hammered work, not carved.

boo, technicalities.

Show me that the Priestly writer in Exodus and the Deuteronomist were speaking of general decorative carvings and not objects made to worship.

i'll one up you. what's the difference, exactly, other than the claims of the author?

pretty much every religion in the area was aniconic. more or less nobody worshiped idols. they were just used in religious functions. in some cases, lavishly worked idols stood in for offerings in the temple, in a kind of perpetual sacrifice so that the person making the offering wouldn't have to keep killing their sheep. in other cases, like in sumeria, the idol stood in for the person, perpetually in the temple (eyes wide to receive the gods). in some of the levantine nations, the idol was the seat of the god who wasn't pictured -- such as in israel. they were religious ornaments, placed permanently in the temple, that did not picture god.

for all intents and purposes, the carubim in israel were not really any different than any idols anywhere in the area. that includes the golden calves in samaria and bethel (during the divided kingdom). it seems that "YOU'RE WORSHIPING AN INANIMATE OBJECT!" was the simultaneous political insult and battle cry of the day, but really just a lot of hot air.

in any case, modern orthodox jews wouldn't make your technical distinction between "beaten" and "graven". any image whatsoever relating to the divine is bad, regardless of medium or method. muslims go one step further, and aren't allowed to depict anything except geometry.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by purpledawn, posted 12-25-2010 4:11 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 142 of 221 (597969)
12-26-2010 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by purpledawn
12-26-2010 5:38 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
Just because the lists don't match, doesn't mean it's a contradiction.

First of all if the book was supposedly inspired by god one would expect that no such "mistakes" would be in it. You know all knowing all powerful god inspiring wrong numbers to a person kinda sounds strange dont you think unless you think only parts of the bible are inspired then i would politely ask you witch parts and how do you know ?

Secondly if i told you i have 7 children and after that i would tell you i have 6 children would those statements contradict each other i would say that they would. If i have 7 i have 7 children and not 6, and if i have 6 children i have 6 not 7.

And im not even going to respond to your latter post about carving and beating something in to shape lol.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by purpledawn, posted 12-26-2010 5:38 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by purpledawn, posted 12-26-2010 6:46 AM frako has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 143 of 221 (597970)
12-26-2010 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by frako
12-26-2010 6:08 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
First of all if the book was supposedly inspired by god one would expect that no such "mistakes" would be in it. You know all knowing all powerful god inspiring wrong numbers to a person kinda sounds strange dont you think unless you think only parts of the bible are inspired then i would politely ask you witch parts and how do you know ?
1. This is the accuracy and inerrancy thread, not faith and belief. This is a science forum. Mistakes are not contradictions. Make up your mind which you are presenting.

The differences may be ancient "typos" or different resources.

quote:
Secondly if i told you i have 7 children and after that i would tell you i have 6 children would those statements contradict each other i would say that they would. If i have 7 i have 7 children and not 6, and if i have 6 children i have 6 not 7.
Yes and no. I understand what you are trying to show and in that case, yes you are contradicting yourself. But if you think about it, if you actually have 7 children, then you also have 6 children. So your second statement isn't incorrect, but it isn't the full count. Just an odd thought.

What you presented were different authors. You didn't present one author contradicting previous information. There is a difference.

quote:
And im not even going to respond to your latter post about carving and beating something in to shape lol.
There was more to that post than that.

Of course, I'm not surprised. You don't tend to provide substance for a real discussion.

Have a great New Year!


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Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:06 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 146 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:09 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-26-2010 11:43 AM purpledawn has responded

frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 144 of 221 (597975)
12-26-2010 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by purpledawn
12-25-2010 4:11 PM


Re: Graven Images
Per the Documentary Hypothesis, the Priestly writer wrote Exodus 20:4 and Exodus 25. Notice the cherubims are beaten or hammered work, not carved.

So if i hammer me a calf and worship it that is no ofence to your god. What if i hammer me a chest and say god is inside.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

notice the part of any likeness of any thing in heaven or on erth, or under water or under the earth.

Clearly saying do not make any kind of image for any kind of worship.

the second clearly shows what item to make for worship, my guess is cherubims are clearly either from heaven above (angels).

Pecel, which is translated as graven image, refers to something carved and then worshiped. IOW, idols. It isn't referring to just anything carved for decoration or used in the worship of YHWH such as the cherubim.

Lol so tell me one nation ever that carved something and then worshiped that thing not the thing it represents.

Graven image refers to an idol carved in wood or stone that is worshiped as a god or in place of a god.

No cultures actually worshiped the statutes or the like, they worshiped what they represented, a many armed woman statue represented a Hindu god it was that god they worshiped not the statue. I think it is illogical to claim that your god wanted no one to worship a statute or idol because no one ever did. He wanted no idols at one point and then he wanted idols for him clear and simple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by purpledawn, posted 12-25-2010 4:11 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 145 of 221 (597976)
12-26-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by purpledawn
12-26-2010 6:46 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
1. This is the accuracy and inerrancy thread, not faith and belief. This is a science forum. Mistakes are not contradictions. Make up your mind which you are presenting.

Oh sorry my mistake i did not know that the book of a all knowing and all powerful god can have mistakes in it

What you presented were different authors. You didn't present one author contradicting previous information. There is a difference.

A so one claiming the number x
and the other claiming the number y is not a contradiction of information because clearly if one news channel reports 1000 dead people and the other 1 million none of them are wrong and no report contradicts the other. And both are still reliable news networks they just got their information differently one went out in the field the other made it up who is who does not matter and they are both reliable. And speak the true word of god or reality in this case.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2678
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 146 of 221 (597977)
12-26-2010 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by purpledawn
12-26-2010 6:46 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
OK since different numbers clearly are not a contradiction to you but a typo mistake or whatever what about. (makes you wander what else could be a typo in the bible thou shall not kill could have been mistyped and it could have spelled thou shall kill )

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 147 of 221 (597984)
12-26-2010 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by frako
12-26-2010 7:58 AM


Re: Graven Images
This is a science forum. Make your case with evidence, not just repetition and odd scenarios.

quote:
the second clearly shows what item to make for worship, my guess is cherubims are clearly either from heaven above (angels).
The writer is not presenting the cherubim as something worshiped as a god or in place of a god. They are part of the temple decor.

Exodus 25:22
And there I will meet with thee and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel

quote:
Lol so tell me one nation ever that carved something and then worshiped that thing not the thing it represents.
Same as above.

quote:
No cultures actually worshiped the statutes or the like, they worshiped what they represented, a many armed woman statue represented a Hindu god it was that god they worshiped not the statue. I think it is illogical to claim that your god wanted no one to worship a statute or idol because no one ever did. He wanted no idols at one point and then he wanted idols for him clear and simple.
We are looking at what is written and whether the writer is contradicting himself. We aren't talking about whether people followed what was written or not. Show me that the cherubim were idols.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 148 of 221 (597990)
12-26-2010 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by frako
12-26-2010 8:06 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
A so one claiming the number x
and the other claiming the number y is not a contradiction of information because clearly if one news channel reports 1000 dead people and the other 1 million none of them are wrong and no report contradicts the other. And both are still reliable news networks they just got their information differently one went out in the field the other made it up who is who does not matter and they are both reliable. And speak the true word of god or reality in this case.
Please address the argument I made in Message 140. News channels are reporting events at relatively the same time. If two reporters are independently reporting information and the information isn't the same, then one or both of them are potentially wrong. They aren't necessarily contradicting each other. They may have different sources of information. One could also have had updated info the other didn't. There's no need for info to be made up to be incorrect or outdated.

In this discussion we are dealing with written accounts. One is about Ezra and the other about Nehemiah. Did you read the accounts? As I said, the author doesn't say that Ezra and Nehemiah were pulling the information from the same place. What Nehemiah found may have been a later or final list. I would assume copying mistakes before different sources of info, but I wouldn't call the differences in the lists a contradiction. Mistakes or different info, yes; contradiction, no. Since we don't have the originals, we can't tell whether the numbers originally agreed or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 12-26-2010 8:06 AM frako has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 149 of 221 (597992)
12-26-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by frako
12-26-2010 8:09 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
quote:
GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.
Think before you write. The fact that I didn't present an argument concerning those verses should tell you that I probably agree the later teaching presented by the author of Peter seems to be a contradiction.

No, not a mistake.

Learn the difference.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 150 of 221 (597997)
12-26-2010 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by purpledawn
12-26-2010 6:46 AM


Re: Contradiction or Mistake
purpledawn writes:

Mistakes are not contradictions.


You're taking the word "contradiction" too literally. When people talk about Bible contradictions, they usually mean inconsistencies.

That seems to be the intent of the OP: "Show me a contradiction/inconsistency and I'll show you an apologetic." Mistakes, plot holes, omissions, etc. should count.


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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