If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

That's pretty bizarre - a string of unsupported assertions that "proves" something.I still say it was Shiva raising up England to smite folks. Or maybe it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn, though She's not real big into Smiting.

I don't understand how you are missing the gist. It's a simple question.What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

>Whaaaaat? Newton prophesied what where? His writings are not part of
>the Bible.True. The word I used was "predicted" but even that is the wrong word. I apologize.Newton simply read what the Bible said, and opined:...since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but [134] from some other kingdom friendly to them...
Page not found | Newton Project Canada>You were talking about bibical prophesy correct? Citing something
>about Newton has no relationship to Jar's premise. If you can show
>that it does then please do so explicitly. A bald statement that the
>premise is false and citing a non sequiter does nothing to help your
>case.Newton was not a biblical prophet. He simply read the Bible, and observed in the above quote that God would allow the Jews to regather into Israel. In case the aforementioned quote is too obscure, I quote the following commentary on Newton's writings:Newton says the 434-year part was fulfilled at the First Coming (as can be explained), and the 49-year part will apply to the Second Coming. And three centuries ago he saw and wrote about the rebirth of Israel at a time when such a thought was preposterous. By faith, he foresaw a "friendly kingdom" someday again issuing the "commandment to restore and build Jerusalem." Now, centuries later, that "friendly kingdom" may have been the United Nations, which decreed Israel's rebirth in November, 1947, causing Israel to be reborn in May, 1948.
http://www.ldolphin.org/angels299.htmlIt is not impossible to read the Bible and understand it when it comes to realizing human imperfection, sin, hurting those around you, and the punishment of damnation.But for intellectual skeptics, if they can spend the time and energy digging into the Bible and history, matters like the Bible telling what happens thousands of years before they happen, as outlined in Page not found, can become clear.ROTB

>What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?It helps people who don't believe God, believe and trust Him with their eternal destiny, since men can't tell the future with perfect accuracy, and when the Word of God does this, you know you can trust it.ROTB

Those were other messiah prophecies not fullfilled. Such as, world peace, the Messiah also must be married and have children, and have
years added onto his life.So far, no person has met the following requirements to be the MessiahQualifications The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not necessarily be limited to, the following: 1. Be the seed (a direct descendant through the unbroken male line) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., 2 Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24) 2. Be a spiritual and military/political leader (e.g., Is 2:3, 11:2; Dan 7:14) 3. Be married and have children during his term (e.g., Ezek 46:16-17)All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstatedIn the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

Sorry, but not an answer.If it can only be understood after the fact, how does that help?We have a thread here on prophesy and so far, not one person has been able to show a single prophesy that was specific and later fullfilled. Would you like to stop over and give it a try?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Thank you for your reply.I went to the idolphin site in your link. That site seemed to be saying Jesus was to return in 1996 or 98. Did he?lfen

>If it can only be understood after the fact, how does that help?I apologize again for not understanding your question, I think I understand it better now. Prophecy can always be understood before the fact. The points of prophecy that I can think of are:1) to warn people of danger, and give them a chance to avoid it
2) to say what happens with perfect reliability, so the faith of believers is strengthenedLets briefly review the contents of Page not found :1) Before the return from Babylonian captivity, Daniel was told by God that 483 years after the building of Jerusalem and it's walls an "annointed" or "Mashiach" would show up. It happened to the very day in 32 AD.2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 ADGod promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.Glory to God!!!ROTB

>I went to the idolphin site in your link. That site seemed to be saying
>Jesus was to return in 1996 or 98. Did he?Touche. Jesus did not. But:1) Newton is not God, he is only trying to interpret the Bible.
2) Jesus said that nobody knows the moment of this return except the Father, and He also said He will come at a time we do not expect.ROTBThis message has been edited by ROTB, 08-22-2004 11:00 PM

>Actually, it hasn't reformed. .. not like the bible said it should.>Israel is a secular state. It is not a monarchy , that has the temple
>as it center, and the Torah as it's basis.With regard to the time, Page not found only speaks of when God would allow Israel back with self-rule. It is not Messianic."reformed" was bad diction on my part. "when God would allow them to return and self-govern" would have been more accurate. I apologize.ROTB

Okay, let's look at it.

quote:

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In 1988 a calculation was discovered in the Bible that accurately foretold the exact year of 1948 for the Independence of Israel over 2,500 years after the prophecy was made.

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In 1988 a calculation was made that showed what would happen in 1948.How exactly does a prophecy that is understood 40 years after the fact help?And for the Daniel prophecy to work, you have to fudge things by changing weeks to years. Then you need to change years from the Hebrew Lunar calendar to a 360 day calendar.Nonsense.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

>Those were other messiah prophecies not fullfilled. Such as, world
>peace, the Messiah also must be married and have children, and have
>years added onto his life.Peace is not given to a world that rejects the messiah. Both the Jews and the Romans passed up chances to save Jesus.Under the section "Later Life" at http://www.fact-index.com/...menachem_mendel_schneerson.html we see that Jewish people who read and write fluent Hebrew had no qualms with the notion that the Messiah should come, do some things, die, and come back.Sorry I don't have a source link for the following, but I pulled the following list from a Lubavichter (Orthodox Jews who think the Messiah died in 1993) web site a while back; 13 citations which allude or refer the death and return of the Messiah:

1) Sanhedrin 98b (see Rashi on this)
2) S'dei Chemed vo;.7, page 2984
3) Derech Eretz Zuta (end of chapter 11)
4) Yeshuos Meshicho (page 104)
5) Midrash Eichah Rabbah (1:51)
6) Yefeh Anaf (commentary on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, ibid)
7) Arba Mei'os Shekel Kesef (p.68 by Rabbi Chaim Vital , pupil of the Arizal)
8) Meori Tzion (chapter 97)
9) Zohar (Balak, 203b)
10) Maamarim of the Alter Rebbe (5568 page 283)
11) Second to last Rashi on Daniel 12:12
12) The Ben Ish Chai in his commentary on Sanhedren 98 in his book "Ben Yhoyada"
13) The Lubavitcher Rebbe's numerous references to the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically "V'hu Yigaleinu" stated after the passing of the previous Rebbe found in Basi L'gani.
I am not certain if the quote below is from a Jew or Christian:When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah or redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David
Raphael Patai, noted anthropologist, author and former professor of Hebrew at Hebrew University
http://www.heartofisrael.org/chazak/articles/saywhat.htm>So far, no person has met the following requirements to be the
>MessiahThe arguments you present my fellow Jewish brother, are academic until the evidence at Page not found is refuted. If:1) The Old Testament says nothing about the Messiah coming only once.
2) The Old Testament says nothing about the Messiah not coming twice.
3) Genesis 49:10 points to the period of time we call the early 1st century as the time Messiah would come (please see Page not found ).
4) The blood sacrifices usually accepted by God were refused during the last 40 years (from 30 AD forward, from when Jesus was accused of channeling the power of the Devil see Matthew 9:34).Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel would open by themselves, until Yohanan ben Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekel, Hekel, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself? I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee: Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.
Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 39b, Soncino Version
http://www.bksilverthorne.com/Articles/Messiahtime.htm5) God promised "Peace" would be given at the second temple in Haggai 2:10.The aforementioned evidence that the Messiah came during what we call the 1st century AD is persuasive enough to me, that I conclude that the notion that he should have done absolutely everything in one visit, is to be discarded.ROTBP.S. I called the Tanakh the "Old Testament," not to insult your faith, but only for the sake of those reading this thread that were not born Jewish.This message has been edited by ROTB, 08-22-2004 11:43 PM

>How exactly does a prophecy that is understood 40 years after the fact
>help?Page not found shows the calculation follows exactly what the text says. It was there for thousands of years, but nobody checked it until 1988, even after it happened in 1948.>And for the Daniel prophecy to work, you have to fudge things by
>changing weeks to years. Then you need to change years from the
>Hebrew Lunar calendar to a 360 day calendar.Everybody remembers that Jacob worked 7 years for each of his wives Rachel and Leah. In the following verse we see that "week" is the translation to English of "7 year period".Complete her week, and we will give you this also for the service which you shall serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week; and he gave him Rachel his daughter for his wife also.
Genesis 29:27:28 Soncino TanakhIf you need to see an extensive discourse on the above point, please visit http://www.christian-thinktank.com/q70weeks.html.ROTB

>Then you need to change years from the Hebrew Lunar calendar to a 360
>day calendar.For a discourse on why the Bible uses 360 day years and not 365.24 day years, please visit Page not found.ROTB

To be a valid prophesy, it must be capable of specificity and being understood before the fact.For example:Prophecy:
There will be an earthquake of greater than 6.5 magnitude with the epicenter located near Palmdale, California before the US Presidential election of 2004.That is prophecy. It will come true, or be proved false.So far you have not shown anything that resembles prophecy.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion